Ripping by hand.

Re: Ripping by hand.

Andrew F in Australia

>Paul,

To confirm, it is possible, but slower, to rip with a crosscut saw.

I ripped a large slab by hand last week (4' long by 2" thick) - took about 2 minutes with a rip saw - each stroke should do about 1/2" of cut.

It's easy to sharpen a rip saw - just hold the file in the gullet at perpendiculars to the blade, then take an even amount (count your strokes) out of each gullet.

If you "have" to buy a new saw - look to the PAX or Lynx range out of Thomas Garlick Flynn in UK. (I'm guessiong that Joel, www.toolsforworkingwood.com carries them)

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Ripping by hand.

Mike Real from Pittsburgh

>Paul, I gave up on the bandsaw for my last project after getting barrelling and totally destroying some good wood. Picked up an Atkins rip, that I got on ebay, ran my japanese gauge around the edge to mark my thickness and took my cut. Occasionally flipped the board over and got great results. Desperation forced me to try it and its the only way I will rip from now on.

ebay & old tools

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Paul,

I don't think you don't have a choice but to buy antique rip saws and learn to restore them. I don't see Lynx or pax as reasonable substitutes.

To a certain extent, you can rip with anything. You can rip with those japanese saws of yours. But I take your question to mean you wish to rip quickly and easily. I don't see how your are going to do that.

Pros stopped ripping by hand about 100 years ago and that coincidentally was the last time good rip saws were made. Look for a Disston saw with a straight back and coarse teeth. Skip the D's, I'd go first for a #7, #8, #12.

If you want to use a plane, you have to learn to sharpen it. Chisel? Gotta learn to sharpen it. Saw? Send it out? Why is this even considered?

Adam

Re: ebay & old tools

Paul Kierstead

>"If you want to use a plane, you have to learn to sharpen it. Chisel? Gotta learn to sharpen it. Saw? Send it out? Why is this even considered?"

Well, if it comes to sharpening a saw which *only* needs sharpening, sure, I am absolutely game. But fettling is more then sharpening and when I buy a saw off of eBay, I have no idea what I got. Maybe the set is wrong/off/etc. Might be pitted. Teeth could be filed way wrong, temper could be gone in the steel, *any* number of things could be wrong with the saw. What is worse, I know little about saws, so I wouldn't even know what is wrong with it. For things I am new to, I would prefer to just have to correct my own stupidity, not also the stupidity of others. At least I know what I did (or on good days can leave well enough alone). If I buy a good saw in excellent condition today, by the time that saw needs sharpening I am much more likely to know what I am doing and what I want. I want to learn about them, but I also want to saw wood and that takes priority. So get a saw, get cutting, learn.

Why would a PAX rip not be good? I am not looking for perfect here, just reasonable.

Don't know about that...

Todd Hughes

>I see lots of real Nice Disston Rip saws that are newer then 100 years old, I think any from befor WWII will make great saws to use if in good condition.Think probably most examples of that classic Disston Rip saw , the D8 Thumb Hole, that I see date from 1920 to 1940. While D8 and 7 rip saws,[even no.8 and 7s] are pretty common if you want a no.12 rip in nice shape you better pack a lunch because in my experance you will have a hard time to find that pup...

Sure maybe the older 1800's saws have prettier handles but do they cut any better? Have seen lots of older saws that had pretty brittle teeth....Of course if you are going to send the saw out to be sharpened no reason you couldn't get a nice cross cut retoothed to rip, though with original rip saws cheap and easy to find don't really see the reason to.....Todd

Re: ebay & old tools

Todd Hughes

>If you don't want to take the time to look for a saw in the wild yourself I think if you buy a saw off ebay from a person that knows tools and saws and what he is selling you should get a good tool.If the seller seems to sell mostly beanie babys and describes the saw as having a "wooden handle and a metal thing with teeth on it", well yeah maybe you ain't going to get a nice saw.If the seller describes the saw accuratly. tells you there is no pitting and what the teeth are, and if blade is straight, etc.etc then I think the chances are he knows what he is selling and you will get a good saw. Don't forget you can always email the seller and ask questions. Might you still get a bad saw?, ...well guess you could, but the UPS man could run over your new Pax saw too. But then judging from the ones I have seen maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing.....Todd

Re: Ripping by hand.

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Try Sandy Moss' website. www.sydnassloot.com

He generally has a good rip saw or two. I got a nice early 1900's D8 thumbhole rip from him and it's sweet. He sells on approval. You order and he ships. If you want it you pay. If not you ship it back.Just live up to the terms and you get to handle the tools first.Much better than Ebay.JR

Older is better! (longish)

Brad in Ottawa

>Fettling a saw is pretty easy... it is not as a Herculean task as you may think it to be. Especially a rip saw.

If you can sharpen a chisel or a plane then a Rip saw with few tpi is slam dunk. No worries regarding turning burrs, mirror polishes, flat soles, flat backs or cryogenics!

I would encourage you to read up on how to sharpen a saw at VintageSaws.com. The articles in the library explain how a saw cuts and how sharpening changes can affect a saw cut.

Sharpening is a skill that you you would eventually have to do with a saw regardless of age. The secret to ripping fast is to keep your saw sharp. So it is a skill that will prove to be valuable. (I personally don't have the patience or the money to send saws away whenever I want them touched up.)

In terms of time invested in tuning a user rip saw I would see no more than 30 minutes for sharpening and setting. I mean it is a rip saw after all and small imperfections will actually improve its abilty to cut. (Afterall, my favourite is missing several teeth to no ill effect!)

Personally, I would rather buy old saws as I can buy many and experiment to find the one that I like the best. (I am not a collector!) Posted here is a before picture of a beat up saw...

and After, with Saw ID ?

Brad in Ottawa

>Here is the after picture... Many people passed over this saw before I got it for a song. Broken handle and a bent brass back. Two seconds in a vise, a quick sharpening, and a new handle produce a great Back Saw.

Hope this gets you to reconsider! (If you want some help I will gladly offer any assistance/coaching!)

Brad

PS - The saw is stamped GEONARLOR & CO Sheffield, does anyone know about this maker?

Re: Ripping by hand. *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I'm kind of partial to these Nakaya for ripping, big and powerful. The trick in both western and eastern saws is to let the saw do the work. The only force you need apply is to lift the saw slightly on the pull stroke for a push saw and on the push stroke for a pull saw.

Pam


Nakaya Tatebiki

Could it be....

Todd Hughes

>Geo. NAYLOR & Co. ? If so dates from 1865 to past 1900 .....Todd

Re: Ripping by hand. Pull...

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>No doubt the saws that Pam is partial to are great (and now I'm thinking of adding one of them to my wish list), but I've had good luck ripping with far less expensive japanese rip saws.

For wood up to around an 1.5" thick, I've had good experiences with this saw:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=15.114.250&dept_id=11811

and for thicker stuff, I've had pretty good luck using this Ryoba

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=19.616.0&dept_id=11812

And of course, the advantage of using cheap saws with replaceable blades is that I don't worry too much about ruining them... (Unlike my one hand-made japanese dovetail saw, where I'm nervous every time I pick it up!) (Er, and I did kill the blade on my Z saw recently through sheer sloppiness...) Oh, and you don't have to learn how to sharpen... ;)

Good luck!

jk

Re: OT - bandsaw performance

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>There's no reason to give up your bandsaw for ripping due to one bad experience. Go talk to the guys on the Main Message Forum regarding bandsaw tuning. They'll help you out. There should be an easy fix to your problem, which is usually caused by a dull blade, but might also be due to improper tensioning, or some minor tuning problem.

Re: Ripping by hand.

Mick Foley

>Also LN is rumored to be planning some panel saws...

Mick

Re: ebay & old tools

John Longwitz-Doraville, GA

>this post inspired me to finally get a Disston rip saw I've been putting off. went to ebay last night and bid on, and won, a #7, 4 1/2tpi in real good condition from a very reputable seller for $15.01 + $9 shipping for $24.01 total. Looks to have most of original blade depth and no handle damage and appears to be from early 1900's. plenty others still out there to be had.

Re: ebay & old tools

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Paul,

I totally understand where you are coming from. I think restoring tools is a huge drag. I absolutely agree you shouldn't have to be asking the question "is it me, or is it the tool?".

I just think you don't have a choice. Now I don't own a Pax or Lynx. I've seen them and I put them down quickly. I don't recall specifically what it was, besides the abhorrent handle, that I hated about them. I don't like skew back rip saws in general, but that's just personal preference.

So instead of mud raking a saw I really don't have information about, here's what I think you should have. If our friendly neighborhood tool dealer(s) can deliver it, that's great.

1) You want a blade as long as your arm or a touch shorter.

2) You want a coarse rip saw- 3-5 points at the heel. (5 is the absolute max). The rake should be 0-3 degrees. Tooth pitch and rake should increase toward the toe, ending in 8ppi, 30 degrees rake.

3) You want a good salmon belly/bellied/breasted saw. I don't understand why, but this makes sawing easier/faster. Pretty sure this is in the 1/2" order of magnitude.

4) I'm not sure that taper grinding is a necessity. I think Pax tapers their blades, but if they didn't, but met all the other criteria, I'd recommend them. Taper grinding just lets you reduce your set.

5) What's going to throw you off the new saws is their unfortunate handles. They aren't just ugly, they're ugly and stupid and that's an unforgivable combination. You want that handle cranked around the back of the saw. It should hang low and be perpendicular to the teeth. (look at a #12- I think the hole is too big for me, but the handle is designed right). Cabinetmakers don't need down force.

See you could make a new handle. You could retooth a Pax saw and get everything I think you need out of it. But then, you could do the same with a $5 flea market special which may be a better saw when you're done.

But make no mistake about it. If you want to rip easily and efficiently, you need everything on my little list. Take anything away, and ripping will be that much harder, that much slower.

I wish there was a great hand saw maker out there I could recommend to you.

Good luck,

Adam

Non Existant Saw

Todd Hughes

>I wonder why Disston, at least to my knowledge never made a rip saw like you described.Looking in my old 1900's catalog it seems that the corsest teeth they offered were 4 1/2 plus while they did have graduated teeth they said that the teeth on the end were only one point finer then at the butt of the blade. so if you had a 5 point rip the teeth at the end would be 6 and not the 8.....I would think if you HAD to have a rip saw like you described to do a good easy job of ripping Disston would have made it. Also in my experance rip saws with teeth corser then 5 are pretty uncommon and in most cases are very old and very poorly sharpened ones. I've seen more then a couple old saws and don't think I have ever seen one that started out at less the 5 PPi and went down to 8 at the tip.Why didn't the old timers that made a living with thier saws want the best working saw?...Well maybe no bid deal, hope you agree......Todd

Re: ebay & old tools

paul womack

>30 degrees rake

I like my rips a little more aggressive than that. OK - a lot more aggressive than that. I suppose it would make the saw easier to start.

BugBear

Re: Don't know about that...

Ernie Miller Topeka

>Are you saying 12 rips are rare or just 12's in general? it seems that most 12's that I see are panel saws. and I let a friend walk off with a nice 12 rip the other day maybe I should get it back.

Re: Don't know about that...

Todd Hughes

>I think most Disston 12s were used by wood workers that did finer work and wanted a top of the line and expensive saw while rip saws are generaly thought of as for coarser work. In my experance finding better quality , originaly expensive saws like a no. 12, 115 or even a 16 in rip is pretty uncommon.Will go a step further and say probably more common to see a no. 12 with fine teeth ,[9-10] then on say a no. 7 or 8 probably for the same reason. Just don't think many old timers were willing to pay for a top of the line saw to do rough work with like rip sawing....well just what i think....Todd

You're right, I'm wrong

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>You�re right. I�m wrong. I apologize.

I have an English 4 tpi saw. My #7 is a 5 tpi saw. I count teeth, then forget if I counted in ppi or tpi. My mistake. 4tpi = 5ppi. I was thinking backwards. I apologize for the confusion, and thanks Todd for pointing it out. My point is only that you want a really coarse saw, okay?

As for the toe teeth, there�s no good way to measure them. I measured one tooth and calculated either tpi or ppi I forget which. Why? Because the teeth are changing geometry very rapidly. Measuring the pitch in one inch is really the average of those last teeth. And that doesn�t sufficiently describe what I�m talking about. You just need to know that the teeth are very much smaller at the toe end. Todd�s probably right (or my saw(s) may have been changed). It may be only one tooth difference on paper heel to toe when the teeth are measured in a full inch. But that first toe tooth appears to be half the size of the heel teeth. Its not subtle. That�s my point.

Paul mentioned rake. Let me clarify that here as well. The change in pitch and rake is not linear. Its more like an exponential. Through most of the cut the rake is very, very small. If I were to guess (I�m not looking at my saws right now) I�d guess pitch is a flatter curve than rake. The rake change really occurs in the first 1/3 of the blade length.

I really apologize for posting wrong information. I really screwed up.

And not to try to make up for that in anyway, but the saw(s) I use now really are the best saws I�ve ever used and they look more or less like the description I screwed up. I�ve used saws with the features I mentioned and without and with many variations in between and I arrived at my recommendations. I really encourage anyone to consider very carefully how your saws are set up. When they are �right� you can rip very, very quickly. This was a frustrating necessity for me since I have no power saws. I suspect few people are actually building stuff without power saws, so I found little practical info on the subject when I started (10 years ago or so? Has it been that long?)

Anyway, please accept my apologies and thanks for setting it all straight Todd and Paul.

Adam

Re: Ripping by hand. Pull...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Jonathan, you're right, there's no real need to buy a real expensive hand made saw for ripping (btw, the Nakaya isn't all hand made like a real expensive Yataiki). However, a ryoba is the last thing I'd recommend for ripping anything longer than the saw width. The cross cut teeth on the opposite side will distort your cut.

Pam

Fat chance of getting it back :)!

Roger Nixon

>

Hmmm.....

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>Pam,

I'm sure you're right... I haven't noticed it as a big problem, perhaps because the rip teeth have more set than the crosscut teeth so the crosscut teeth don't make too big a mess of the line..? And I suppose that generally speaking when I'm making a rip cut on a long, thick-ish piece I don't worry too much about getting it 'just' right... But, I am interested in upgrading to a nicer rip saw, and will be interested to see how big a difference the lack of the crosscut teeth makes...

Best,

jk