Tormek or MKII Sharper

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

Mike in Mystic

>Both.

Seriously. I have the MKII and it excels for my plane irons and chisels. I've even used it now with the Veritas small blade holder for my spokeshave blades. Skew chisels, etc. work great.

For turning tools, I've used a dry grinder with the Wolvervine jig, but I find it less than ideal - the edges just aren't refined enough. This probably has something to do with my inexperience, but I find myself wanting something more. Thus, I'm planning to buy a Tormek very soon mainly to deal with turning and carving tools (I'm taking a carving class soon, so will likely get some carving tools as well). I'll also use this to sharpen jointer and planer (power versions) blades. Also, household items such as knives and scissors will be taken care of on the Tormek.

A lot of money, I admit, but I've determined it will be worth it to me and should allow me to think less about sharpening and more on improving my woodworking skills.

Mike

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

Todd from San Jose

>It may depend on what you want to use it for.

I initially owned a MKII, but just sold it and bought a Tormek. I wasn't satisfied with the MKII, but there are lots of owners who love theirs. To each his own, I guess.

I have a need to sharpen carving gouges (straight, spoon and backbent) and kitchen knives, in addition to plane irons and chisels. The Tormek is a good solution for this wide variety of tasks. The MKII does not have the variety of jigs that the Tormek does.

For plane irons and chisels, I'll do final honing with my water stones. I am hopeful that it will be quick and easy to do this honing free-hand on the waterstones (without a sharpening jig), because the Tormek's hollow grind will give me a more stable surface and reduce rocking.

One more candidate...

Todd from San Jose

>A friend of mine has the Lap-Sharp system, which is similar to a MKII, but is wet, turns slower, is foot-pedal actuated, and yes, more expensive. It's pretty sweet, I used it a while back and was impressed. If I were going to complement my Tormek with a MKII-sytle sharpener, I'd get a Lap-Sharp (of course, winning the lottery might be a prerequisite!). If I didn't have a need to also sharpen gouges and kitchen knives, the Lap-Sharp would be my first choice instead of the Tormek.

Todd

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

steve knight

>what no one has ever heard of free hand sharpening? depending on jigs makes sharpening slow and it does not teach you the skills free hand sharpening does. you can freehand on the mk11 but not the tormek. You can do planer blades without a jig of course.

It depends, Bart... (long and even boring)

Hoa Dinh in Alameda

>on how and what you want to do.

I'd been considering either of them for a while. In my case, money is not really a problem (Boss indicated a fat bonus check coming). Due to lack of shop space (what's new?), I don't have a dedicated sharpening station. I have to put away the machine after use.

In addition, my WW session consists of many short periods of time (30 mins - 2 hrs). I don't have a whole day in the shop. I can't afford much time for setting up & cleaning up.

For lathe tools, I have an old slow speed 8" grinder with Oneway jigs. With the little turning that I do, I don't need anything else, at least for now.

I just need a quick way to sharpen chisels and plane irons.

The Mk. II is perfect for what I need. It is dry (less mess), portable, quick and simple. Yesterday I received an extra blade for the LV LA block plane. In 10 minutes, with the Mk. II, I flattened the back and put a razor-sharp edge on the new blade, ready for planing. The Tormek could have done it too, but not in 10 minutes for me (remember, that included the time to set it up and put it away).

The Tormek can do more. But I don't really need all of its extra capabilities. I may ultimately buy it, but not now.

I said that money was not an issue. That is not exactly true. I didn't risk to make a $400 mistake to buy the Mk. II with extra stuffs and found out that I didn't like it (not the case, BTW). For the Tormek, the risk was even more. But I could risk a less expensive, say $250, mistake. That is why I didn't buy either of them until recently that I found a used Mk. II. Had I found a used Tormek at a good price, I would have bought it too.

I know I didn't answer your question. I just wanted to tell you what I went through.

-- Hoa

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

Mike in Mystic

>you make a good point, Steve. For me, I find that these type of "finesse" operations don't ever become second nature for me, mainly due to my not being able to put enough repetition into it. Since my time is limited in the shop, I don't have patience for less than ideal results (who am I kidding hehe). At the least, I want to get consistent and good results. That's why I love the MKII - I get great edges almost without thinking about it. I'm told the Tormek is similar for turning tools, and is an improvement in edge quality from a dry grinder. I'm still not that good of a turner, but I have learned that sharp tools make a big difference.

I do have the nagging feeling that I'm not really learning as much "fundamentally" as those like you that can do so much without jigs and such, but I have to deal with the limitations of my own experience.

Mike

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

Todd from San Jose

>Steve,

In an ironic way, I'm hoping the Tormek will help me with my free-hand skills, and I'd like to get your opinion...

My goal is to use the Tormek for gouges, kitchen knives, and occasionally grinding the bevel on chisels and irons. But the majority of the time, I'll just need to touch up my chisels and irons with a quick free-hand hone on my waterstones. I now struggle with free-handing on waterstones, because I'm trying to eye-ball the secondary bevel angle, and sometimes end up rocking. But with the Tormek's hollow bevel's two lines of contact with the waterstone, I'm hoping this will let me take the training wheels off and lose the jig. Waddayathink?

Todd

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

steve knight

>it could help. I have not sharpend too many hollow beveled tools. thicker tools make free hand sharpening easier. thats the main reason I have stuck with 1/4" blades because they are easy to learn to free hand. same with japanese tools.

knives are nto so hard because you can do a slicking motion with them. you just need to keep the angle the same.

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>These grinding tools do such a small job (back flattening, one has to go to stones and the like for finishing the job anyhow) that only has to be done rarely that it seems easier to use stones. But you're right, thick irons make it easier to freehand.

Pam

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

steve knight

>I agree they are really only for rough work and most people don't need to do that too often. well I did when I was learning as I kep screwing the edges up (G) I use the makita as a grinder and back flattener and do all the sharpening on the stone. that works well. plus it is pretty fast and costs less then the finer grit papers.

Re: It depends, Bart... (long and even boring)

steve knight

>well 10 minutes is not qucik to me (G) with shapton stoens you could go through the grits (once the basic work is done on the blade in a few minutes. I seldomn spend more then 3 minutes on a new blade. the makita gets at most 1 minute of using getting the bevel flat and accurate and the bulk of the back flat. I only use one grit then I finish off on my shapton stones. it is faster and easier then changing discs. well if you cna't freehand it is nto as fast though. so practice and save money.

Re: It depends, Bart... (long and even boring)

kees

>Makita with sandingpaper or stone?

kees

Point may be missing

Hoa Dinh

>The point is not 10 or 3 minutes. It is that sharpening is a very personal thing (see Todd's post above). With my current situation, the Tormek would take me more time than the Mk. II for that particular task. I just want to share my experience.

I appreciate your encouragement to learn freehand. But you do it 10 times a day. I'm luckly (or unlucky, depending how you look at it) if I do it 10 times a year, and with very limited shop time.

-- Hoa

Re: It depends, Bart... (long and even boring)

steve knight

>sandpaper. I wore out so many stones I fianlly changed over. I only use 120 grit or 80 though. then I finish by hand.

Re: Point may be missing

steve knight

>10 to 20 a week not a day I would be dead 10 a day (G) but I started out slow too. I battled machines and blamed my tools/stoens and fought with jigs and said hell with it and just figured out how to do it free hand.

the time saved is pretty large. setting up a machine takes some time.

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Bart,

I've written about this extensively, and if you do an archive search you will find some fairly detailed comparisions as well as tips on how to improve each.

As just a brief overview from someone who can choose whatever he wants for sharpening.

I use the Veritas MKII (QPSS) for the face bevels of all my flat blades (except for #8 and 112 scraper blades that won't fit). I also us it for most back bevels. I had previously and still have the original MK I version (NUSS) and used it for the same purposes as the QPSS, but the QPSS is so much nicer to use.

For those flat blades (including a few skewed blades) that don't work well in the QPSS/NUSS carraige, and for very low back bevel angles, I use either a Fasttrack honing guide or another that I can't talk about right now. I usually run these on Shaptons.

I use Shapton Waterstones for flattening and polishing the backs of all flat blades. I firmly believe that the present configuration of all power sharpening systems is inadequate for back flattening.

I use two 100 pound 8 inch Delta industrial grinders (with SG wheels on one and grey and white wheels on the other) and the Kelton and TruGrind jigging systems for initial shaping and major geometry changes of both round tools (mostly turning tools) and flat blades. I use these rarely.

I maintain almost all my round tools (mostly woodturning gouges, but a few carving tools) on the Tormek. I also do my power planer blades, kitchen knives and axe heads on the Tormek. The Tormek jigs are some of the very best around and are superb for complex gouge grinds, holding very small and very large tools, and turning skews.

I use diamond and SC slipstones for internal rounds such as bowl flutes and serrated kitchen knives.

I use two 1 inch verticle belt sanders (one with a leather honing belt fitted with green compound) for a few hollowing tool tips and for the limited free hand grinding I do. The ease of changing between grit sizes is equaled only by the QPSS/NUSS.

I can't imagine being without any of these for the extensive sharpening I do on a very wide range of tools. None of the systems are perfect for everything. If one is working predominantly with flat blades, by all means get the new Veritas QPSS. But if you are also regularly going to deal with carving or turning tools, then get the Tormek. Again, I've gone into this in greater depth in previous posts. Just look up my name and either Tormek or QPSS or NUSS and you'll like get more than you care to read.

Re: Tormek or MKII Sharper

joel

>For carving tools Ashley Iles in their factory uses a green compound charged buff. Kirshen (two Cherries uses the Koch system (hard felt wheel) in their factory I think Stubai does too.

The advantage of those systems is that the rounding a buff does of the bevel is exactly what you want for a carving tool (not for a bench tool). It's also blisteringly fast. (<15 seconds for the buffing MAX)

The trick is a light touch and watching the corners.

For geometry changes Ashley Iles recommends a rubber grinding wheel - we use one and it's brilliant. my total sharpening time from start to finish - raise a burr on the rubber wheel and get rid of it on the buff, is about 25 seconds. And I don't have a lot of practice. The factory record is 9 seconds -start to finish.

You do not want the hollow grind on a carving tool that you get with a tool ground perpendicular to a wheel.

With the Ashley Iles system you hold the tool with the heel of the bevel against the wheel. Shine a strong light again the tool and lift the handle until the shadow of the tool against the stone disappears. This puts the edge on the stone correctly. Then rotate the tool on it's axis.

This technique will work on any grinding system - provided it doesn't cut too fast. And it's much much faster than jigging something up.

Re: rubber and Koch

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Shine a strong light again the tool and lift the handle until the shadow of the tool against the stone disappears. This puts the edge on the stone correctly.

Where is the light positioned, Joel? As an axis light, perhaps on the user's head?

And didn't you tell me a while ago you were selling the Koch system? I don't see it on your site now. This system is really enticing for carving tools. Nora Hall also recommends it; but I see that she sells a set comprised of two wheels and paste, to be used between 800 and 2000 rpm. What do you put the wheels on?

And what's a rubber grinding wheel? Where do you get these?

Thanks,

Pam

Re: rubber and Koch

joel

>THe light should be low and above the tool and to the right if you are righthanded. It should shine a long shadow off the edge of the tool.

We don't sell either system. We might in the future but for now we don't

They both are great but we have other fish to fry at the moment.

The rubber wheel that Ashley Iles sells is part of a kit. They also sell the entire system including a grinder that turns away from you for about 100 bucks. maybe less. We can't sell it here because reversing a grinder turning direction is asking for a lawsuit. However Barry Iles fixed one up for us. We could sell the 4" rubber wheel (I think 4") and 6" buff they sell as a kit but at the moment we don't. The rubber wheeel works a lot better than a ceramic for this purpose and by being so small it turns at a slower surface speed than a 6" wheel (about 1/2" I guess) so burning danger is way reduced and the larger diameter buff is still at the right speed 3000 rpm)

Joel's probably got the best deal

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>if he can figure out how to sell it. I'll add some unscientific observations on the Koch wheels I bought from Nora a few years ago, along with the green heat-sensitive honing compound (which I believe is branded by Stubai, and sounds like the same stuff Joel is talking about). The compound gets to a certain heat and then liquefies on the edge, so it gives you a visual indication of when it is cutting. You get a critically sharp edge, for sure.

Nora's two wheels and compound were about $120 back then, if I'm remembering right. Koch also sold a variable speed motor for megabucks (like about $500), which I didn't buy. I needed a grinder, didn't have one at the time, so bought a 1750rpm Baldor, Model 632e IIRC) for $200+. I just turned the Baldor around and remounted the wheel housings end for end facing north instead of south, so then the thing was turning away from me. It works great, and I've used it a lot. These wheels do not raise a burr on the inner bevel. I find after 8 or 10 sharpenings, I need to regrind the bevels due to rounding, but then I kinda like longer flatter bevels. BTW, Nora's recommendation to me over the phone for bevel shaping was a belt sander turned upside down in a vise, and I have found this works OK in my experience.

I should mention that Nora's wheels are sold as 1/2" center hole, but these are European wheels, and are actually 12mm. What that means is that if you use a machine with a 1/2" arbor (like I did), you need to take a 1/2" drill and ream out the wheel a bit, and then you can work it onto a 1/2" arbor. If you don't ream the center hole, and just force it on, the wheel will deform a bit (DAMHIKT).

Garrett Wade sells a Taiwanese buffer/grinder which turns at 1120 rpm, and the 6" model comes with a 1/2" arbor. $155 on sale right now, I think.

So if you put the numbers together, figuring out how to do a deal with Joel on the Iles package is probably the way to go. The wheels and abrasive sound very similar to mine from his description, and I'm kinda getting a hankering to try that rubber wheel for bevel shaping, since my belt sander bought from Sears back in '02 makes a helluva screaming sound which I'm too old to put up with any more.

2 cents. Wiley

Re: Joel's probably got the best deal

joel

>I don't actually stock the Ashley Iles system. I suppose I just just ask Barry to send me a few sets and for those of you who want to set one up you can go ahead.

In my view the Koch system is better for for touchups. The Ashley Iles system is better for serious work - because of the rubber wheel. They both use the same compound - the green rouge that everyone (us too) sells.

THe bevel technique and the light will work with every system and for those a tad more conservative I recommend the Oar sharpening jig which works great on stones and on flat wheel systems like the LV or a belt sander (if not too aggressive).

Incidently for anyone serious about sharpening carving tools Chris Pye's books (woodcarving and equipment (forget the title, we stock it but i'm too tired to look it up) it's a two volume set. Volume 1 is the best reference on sharpening carving tools out there by far. He explains not just how to do it but how different sharpening geometries behave and why you sharpen to specific shapes.

Re: rubber and Koch *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Iles' web site says they have a sharpening system that includes directions on how to adapt a cheap grinder to "an efficient honing machine." Sounds like exactly what I need. :)

I'll give you a call next week.

Thanks,

Pam


Ashley Iles sharpening system

Re: Joel's probably got the best deal

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, Wiley, very informative. Nora's wheels and compounds are $128, but no motor at the moment; although I looked at this system a year or so ago, got put off by the megabucks cost. I've got a cheap grinder, much too fast for this stuff, turns the wrong way, too.

Interesting that the Koch system doesn't raise a burr. I think you're right, Joel has the best deal; but even he recommends the Iles for grinding the bevels, the Koch for honing. Maybe I'll continue using slipstones and the like for honing, which isn't really an onerous task, use the Iles for more serious shaping. I've got a pile of them to reshape to longer, flatter bevels.

I can't bear the thought of running the belt sander inside the shop, outside it's not so deadly, can always drop it and run. :)

Pam

Rubber wheel

Bob Hackett

>Try doing a search under Cratex.They also make a mandrel and points that can be used in a Dremel or a Foredom tool.

MB