H&Rs *LINK*

Re: H&Rs

David Miller from Iowa

>Interesting post �

Yes, there are an infinite number of profiles that cannot be done with H&Rs. Anything with a sharp corner. �Must haves� are a matter of taste � I sort of do it in reverse, my edges end up being whatever plane profile I have, although I do have some cool ogees.

Suggest you consider getting a #66 scratch beader (Lie Nielsen or eBay) � you can custom make any profile very easily out of old hacksaw blades. Maybe then consider a #45, although some complex profiles (and edge work) is better done with the #55, but that has a high gizmosity quotient and one needs the patience of Job to get up the learning curve on that beast.

Good luck, David

Re: H&Rs

joel

>a 1/2 set of H+R will allow you to cut amost any curve and full sets (36 planes) are very rare.

That being said - the trival way to keep the number of profiles down is simply adjust the design to the planes at hand. That is what was done historically and unless you wish to make a slavish copy of an antique there is no reason not to go this route.

Re: H&Rs

Dean J in MN

>...and other than Clark & Williams, where do you get a 1/2 set now days?

I'd love to have some H&Rs...

-Dean

Re: H&Rs

joel

>us - (in-stock evens from C+W) that's it as far as I know

Re: H&Rs

Bob Rozaieski, SE PA

>I do have a home made scratch stock/beader as well. Sorry, I failed to mention that.

Re: H&Rs

Peter L Berglund in Denver

>Got mine from Tony Murland a few years ago.

I thought...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Shepherd Tool is developing a set of H&R's.

There I go thinking again...

Re:H & R ??

Chad Boehlke

>Right now I am "playing around" with the idea of making NEW moulding planes for woodworkers. H & Rs are in my mind, but not had a chance to make a set. I have so far made made a few including a Cove out of Oak. The blades are to be made in a blacksmith shop.

Re:H & R ??

joel

>in general - one of the big problems with old molding planes is that the bodies move out of a match with the irons. This is even when the bodies are made of proper 1/4 sawn beech, properly dried. In general beech is pretty stable and certainly a new beech plane properly made should have a matching iron for a long time. However making a molding plane body out of any less stable material is ok for a one shot but I think is asking for trouble in a few years.

Re: H&Rs

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I also got my half set from Tony Murland.

For sharp corners, a fenced rabbet plane should do everything you need that the H&Rs won't do.

However, note that H&Rs cut shapes with circular (Roman) profiles. If you need to make eliptical (the older Greek tradiition) profiles, the shapes won't look quite right, unless you are good at interpolating between two different curves. Probably, no one will notice, so don't worry about it.

Re: H&Rs

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Bob,

I think your question is really about what moldings you should use, not what planes you need.

I think you should go research that because there�s an objective answer we all need to hear more about. I�ll give you a hint: Start with an internet search, then have a look at a book by Warne. You�ll start to see some curious similarities. Then you�ll need a look at Paladio and teh first pages of Chippendale's "Director...".

At the end of that very worthwhile study, you�ll have an understanding and the right answer to your question.

I�m not trying to by coy or aloof in any way. As you already know, there�s no way we can answer this question for you. It depends directly on the work you do and what you want to do in the future.

Just a point of clarification:

�I'm sure that joiners in the 18th and 19th centuries did not have hundreds of planes in every imaginable profile�.�

In at least some cases I can recall, they did have a hundred planes. Typical 18th century joiner/cabinetmakers probably had between 30-70 planes on average. The overwhelming majority clearly were molders. Some shops, even early shops, had many more planes.

But don�t let that fact dissuade you. A little research will answer your question to your satisfaction. If you can post your findings/experience, that will help others here as well.

Good Luck,

Adam

Re: H&Rs

Steve Wargo

>I think that with a set of hollows and rounds and a pair of snipe bills you can cut anything. The snipe bills are a little easier to control than scratch stock and will prevent that terrible feeling you get when you lift up a chink of grain. While I do have quite a number of molding planes I'm not certain theres anything I couldn't cut with the 20 planes in a 1/2 set of H/R's and a pair of snipe bills.

Snipe?

Dan Moening, in foggy Sacramento

>In my younger days I went on a few snipe hunts.

Recently, I've even lead a few...

but I didn't know that they had bills.

Might be why I never found any.

I know how scratch stock and beading planes work, but I'm not familiar with a "snipe bill"

Can you describe a "snipe bill" or post a picture?

Dan.

Still learning...

Re: Snipe? *LINK*

David Miller from Iowa

>A class I wish I would have attended


Building a snipe billed plane

Re: Snipe?

Steve Wargo

>They are used to define the sharp inside points on moldings.

Re: H&Rs

Bob Rozaieski, SE PA

>Thanks Adam! Your replies always seem to leave me wanting a little more! I printed out the response so I can do a little studying. I guess my main issue, which goes along with your response to identify the type of moulding, is that I don't really have a style per se. For example, if I want to build a country hutch with an open top and put an ovolo on the edge of the shelves, I can use an appropriately sized ovolo plane or a fenced rabbet and a hollow to get the same profile. Or if I wanted to build a period piece with more complex mouldings, i could use appropriate complex moulders or a combination of plough/rabbet/H&Rs. So I guess my question had more to do with versatility of particular moulders rather than what to get for a particular type of profile, in which case the H&Rs are obviously more versatile, it's just that I wasn't sure if there isn't anything that they can't do.

Re: H&Rs

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>H&R are necessary, but not efficient, Bob. When you need to make moldings, you really wish you had a dedicated complex molder. I don't think they are a panacea for you. I find there are many sizes that I never ever use. I'll bet everybody you ask will say the same.

Technically you can make any molding with the tools Steve Wargo mentioned. But then again you can make anything with a few chisels (I'm exaggerating of course). I read your question (like so many of your previous posts) as asking a practical question: what molding planes do you really need. I don't think a half set is a "must have" as you say. There are "must have" planes and I think you should do the research to find out what they are (then tell the rest of us):)

Adam

inside points called "quirks"

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>

Re: H&Rs

joel

>I would agree. I would bet the average 18th century shop did pretty much the same thing as a modern shop - they figured out if for a particular job if it was cheaper to get a molding plane vs using H+Rs. Much like today with shaper blades. If the job warrents it - you save on labor and add into the bid the cost of the blades. THe next job the blades are paid for.

If on the other hand you are just starting out and/or because of your location it may take weeks to get a new plane - H+Rs make a lot of sense. In the SEaton chest IIRC there were a set of H+Rs and no complex molders. After all the set was for a guy just starting out.

Once of course you have a bunch of molding planes you try as you can to convince everyone to use those profiles because it's cheaper for everyone.

Sizing Hollows and Rounds *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>This might be of some help. This is all new to me so thanks for inspiring me to do a little googling on a slow day


Sizing Hollows and Rounds

Making Mouldings with Hollows and Rounds

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>This is another article from Hen Greenberg

Photographic Account of Process *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Here is a nice article with pictures of a shelf with crown moulding built as described in Ken's article


Making a Crown Molding Shelf

Classic Plane Making *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Make your own 1/2 set of H&R's


Classic plane making

Some more thoughts on H&Rs

jimreed@marietta

>Sizes vary, so you need a set from the same maker. No need for the full set unless you want to copy drawings--half set will get you close enough for most furniture projects. The most used are the smaller half (2-8). Many of these sets were made for carpenters who made large moulding profiles and used soft woods--hence the plethora of larger sizes. Us cabinetmakers need small ones and prefer those with YORK pitch which work better for hardwoods. Slight skew also helps keep them on track.