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Hand saw sharpening question

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Hand saw sharpening question

#1

Hand saw sharpening question

Jerome Bias

>I have been learning to sharpen a cross cut back saw. I have gotten the teeth nice and sharp. I like the set that it has (minimal set), and it tracks wonderfully along the vertically plane.

But. There always has to be a but in these kind of things. I am finding that it is kind of hard to make the initial start of a saw cut.

I am guessing that this is what is making the horizontal angle of the cut to be consistantly off. Of course human error could never be the possible cause of this problem, it has to be the saw.

The angle of the front edge of the tooth is not terriblely vertical. Actually I am afaid that it might not be acute enough. I'm stumped as to what to adjust in my technique.

I guess that I probably should give y'all some information to work with. My saw has 12 teeth per inch and I am usinging a double extra slim file that is 6 inches long.

Part of my goal is to learn to sharpen a cross cut saw, but also to be able to make saw cuts and hopefully reduce the need to go to the dreaded shoot board.

Are there any answers or suggestions that might be made.

Thanks,

Jerome

Mebane, NC

Re: Hand saw sharpening question

#2

Re: Hand saw sharpening question

Dean J in MN

>Jerome --

Sounds like you are just dealing with a sharp saw... Sharp saws, and sharp saws with low rake angles are harder to start then dull saws or saws with higher rake angles.

The angle of the front edge of the tooth is not terriblely vertical.

A crosscut saw shouldn't have vertical fronts, even rip saws have some rake most of the time. I for one use 2-4 degrees on my rip, and there is a noticable difference in starting a rip saw with rake angles in that range compared to say 6-8 or more degrees. Crosscut saws rake angles are in the 15 degree range... Give or take depending on application and sawing experience.

Have you studied:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/cgi-bin/frameset.cgi?left=sawcare&right=/library/primer/sharp.html

A great intro on saw sharpening...

Good Luck!

-Dean

Re: Hand saw sharpening question

#3

Re: some saws are hard....

paul womack

>If this is your first saw sharpening trial, you have jumped in at the deepest end.

A tenon saw (12-15 TPI, cross cut) is the hardest cabinet saw to sharpen IMHO.

Small teeth are harder than big teeth, cross cut is (much) harder than rip.

These factors mean that a dovetail saw with 18TPI is easier (again, IME) that a 14 TPI tenon.

I would start sharpening coarse rips, and move to smaller teeth, and/or cross cut in gradual stages.

If you've already done all this (you don't really say one way or the other), I'll respond again.

BugBear

Re: Hand saw sharpening question

#4

Re: some saws are hard....

Jerome Bias

>If this is your first saw sharpening trial, you have jumped in at the deepest end.

A tenon saw (12-15 TPI, cross cut) is the hardest cabinet saw to sharpen IMHO.

I really didn't mean to jump into the deep water. Really I didn't.

Actually, I had worked on my rip cutting skills. I have a 5 tpi rip hand saw that I sharpened and I am quite proud of, and there is another 12 tpi rip back saw that I sharpened. It came out okay not great, but okay. (fair to middling- as we saw at home)

Jerome Bias

Mebane, NC

Re: Hand saw sharpening question

#5

Re: Hand saw sharpening question

L. Hanson - N. Idaho

>Here's a part of a thing I'm working on for my website, maybe it will help:

If you are having difficulty starting the cut, here's probably why:

First off, a freshly sharpened saw is harder to start than a dull one. The cutting edge of sharp teeth are going to grab the wood much more than a dull one would. One experience with saws actually looks for this, because if it's not there it's a sign the saw is dull or at least starting to get dull. Practice makes a great deal of difference in being able to start saws easily.

Figure A shows a normal saw at the start of a cut. The corner of the stock being cut protrudes into the teeth, forcing the saw to take too big of a bite. After the saw gets going, the angle is closer to that of the saw, and the teeth can then take light shavings off instead of a big chunk, similar to what you see in Figure B.

To start the cut easier, there are three things to try - first, you can try pull the saw towards you to start the kerf, which will start a shallow cut by breaking through the corner of the board. In Figure B - you can see the reduced angle of both the teeth in the pull direction, and in the stock after the initial cut has been made. What you've done is changed the effective angle of the cut, lessening the bite the teeth need to take.

Pulling the saw can cause a bit of tear-out at the corner. If that's an issue, score the cut first with a utility or marking knife.

A second alternative, shown in Figure C is to can lower the angle of the saw. The lower the angle, the easier the saw will cut. Be careful you don't go too low, as it can be awkward and possibly cause a bit of tear-out.

A third option is to lift about half of the weight of the saw off of the board for the first cut or two. This obviously does not change the cutting angle - what this does is provide a check against your technique. Many times you are simply trying to force the saw too much, putting too much weight behind the cutting motion - which causes the teeth to dig into the wood, making it harder to start the cut.

You can use either any single or combination of these methods to help get the saw started in the cut.




If you've gone through all the steps outlined above and are still having difficulty, you may have the saw sharpened with too steep of a rake angle. You might need to go back and re-sharpen your saw using a less aggressive angle that starts easier. Be warned, easing the rake angle will make the saw easier to start, but at a cost in performance - the saw will not cut as fast. Also, if you just sharpened the saw, it can take a little while, but as the saw begins to dull, it will get easier to start. The razor sharp edges on a freshly sharpened saw don't always last that long, but that doesn't necessarily mean the saw is dull. It may be that a little patience will bring about the results you desire.

Leif

Norsewoodsmith.com

Re: Hand saw sharpening question

#6

Re: some saws are hard....

paul womack

>OK. I would suggest you make and use my rake control gizmo. The effect of rake is important in a rip saw, but variations in rake are amplified in their effect by the fleam angle in a cross cut saw.

A fleam angle of around 20-25 degrees is usual in cross cut panel saws, but when the teeth get small, this becomes impractical. I found this to my cost when I sharpened a 14 TPI cross cut with 20 degree fleam. The teeth become vary narrow.

Next time I will drop to a 15 degree fleam. Re-reading Pete Taran, he already knew this. Paying attention to your teacher always pays.

Here's the gadget. It has about the best benefit to build effort ratio of anything I've seen.

Rake control gizmo

BugBear

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