Dovetails

Re: Dovetails

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Jonathan

I am in the process of dovetailing drawers for a shaker-style Chest-of-Drawers. This has graduated drawer heights, with 6 rows in all and 3 different drawer heights.

All drawers are through-dovetailed at the rear and half-blind at the front.

The first 2 rows have 3 tails at the front, the next 2 rows have 4, and the last 2 rows have 5.

This suits this project. I would not have a hard-and-fast rule for all occasions. Aesthetics (balance) wins out in the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Dovetails *LINK*

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Jonathan,

This is just 'what I like' and have gotten used to doing. I like to use a large center tail, with declining tails on either side, and an even number of pins. There are more pins at the wings than in the middle.

I have linked to a bench drawer below, and the bench it goes into. This is a half-lap, but I use the same approach on through dovetails.

If this were a carcass, I'd make the pins a little fatter, at the expense of the tails. Also, the half pins on this drawer got pretty frail after I planed 1/32" off of top and bottom to make the drawer fit! Its a good idea to include enough meat on those half pins to take some planing.

Thanks a lot to Roger Nixon for the bandwidth at his Traditional Tools website.

Wiley


Bench drawer, 7"

And the bench (if interested) *LINK*

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>The drawer goes into the bench below.

Wiley


Bench

Re: Dovetails

Alan Bierbaum

>For a shop tool cabinet, functional but not necessarily beautiful, I use half pins on the ends and about a 2" space between pins. See attached picture.

I was going for function; you may be going for looks.

Thanks, Wiley!

fmutchler@adelphia.net

>You mentioned that you liked the dual twin vise setup in previous posts. Have you changed you mind at all since then?

Very nice joinery, indeed.

OMG Wiley...

COMNGER - The Irish diaspora in Munich

>... you made that yourself?

-g-

Re: Dovetails

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I think form and function can go hand in hand here, but would be a bit more work than just making something that functions. On my wall hanging tool chest I varied the size of the tails a bit, putting a larger tail in the center if I remember right, as Wiley says. Even if I didn't, it sounds like a good idea. My main concern was strength in both dimensions. I knew my cabinet doors full of tools would weigh a bunch, so the pins went on the sides of the cabinet and the tails in the top and bottom. I also knew I would be putting a bunch of weight on the bottom of the cabinet with a pigeon hole assembly, so I was concerned about the strength of the joint and used a number of smaller pins and tails to provide more glue surface. An interesting question, but I don't think there are rules laid out in stone for dovetailing; each person has to make themselves aware of the issues that concern them, and then design the piece in such a way that they are pleased with both form and function or they won't be happy with the project after it's done, which would be a waste of time.

Re: Dovetails

Kevin French, Antrim NH

>J.

If you have the time, pick up the book "the Complete DOVETAIL" by Ian Kirby. He has a lot of diagrams of spacing, size, and varying the layout.

Re: And the bench (if interested)

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>It is always nice to see bench pix!

What are the two things on the right side of the front skirt?

Re: Hold downs *LINK*

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>by Veritas

Re: Dovetails

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>What I'm shooting for is a marriage of form and function. Of course laying out dovetails is one thing, cutting tight fitting dovetails is a horse of an entirely different color with my limited skills. Ah the beauty of exposed joinery....

It's kinda like opera....

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>...exposed joinery is kinda like opera. There's nothing more beautiful than good opera....and nothing worse than bad opera. Think I'll crank up the anvil chorus from Il Travatore, grab my carvers mallet and get to work

Regards

Jonathan

Re: Hold downs

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Ah. I did not reconize them in the pic. Do you know what the minimum skirt/benchtop thickness is for them to work well?

Re: And the bench (if interested)

Chris Knight in UK

>Wiley,

That is a very solid looking bench! From the position of the face vise, I would guess you are right handed which raises a question in my mind - how do you avoid hitting the wall when you are planing?

Re: And the bench (if interested)

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Thanks for the eye candy. I just Loooove a massive bench, and your dovetails are something to aspire to. I decided to go for a much smaller version of the tool cabinet, and since this will be a carcas, I'm going to start with half pins and an even number of pins with even spacing. This will leave the tail in the middle a little oversized. I'm kind of contemplating adding some drawers on the bottom just deep enough to house some block planes, spokeshaves and what not. For those I think I'm going to use tiny weeney dovetails with large tails and a center pin and start with a full pin. I have to seriously think about adding the drawers as this will make my cabinet 36" instead of 30" and the distance between my workbench and the cabinet 10" instead of 16" - a major compromise for some drawers. The other drawback is that I'll have to move my bench so that there are no obstructions for the cabinet doors to swing. So pretty much I've gotten nothing done except lapping the sole of my 604+1/2 and thinking about a new shop layout. The spot was being saved for a future lathe.

Regards

Jonathan

Re: It's kinda like opera....

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>...or better yet, Siegfried? (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

Re: Thanks, Wiley!

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Frank,

Yes, I like the twin-screws, provided they're installed with the zero-clearance blocking above the screws to prevent sagging. Mainly I like not having to find the right-sized shim for the other side of the vise (not organized enough). One thing I like about the end vise is that there is 7" of clear space outside the screw at the front edge of the bench. This turns out to be extremely useful for both sawing, and for transferring dovetail marks from tails board to pins board.

On the front vise, I like the Veritas, but also feel that Adam's or Andrew F.'s (Australia) old-tyme wooden-screw twin would be most excellent. The twin-screw is a very old design--there is a picture of a drawing in The Workbench Book of a German bench, circa 1505 AD, with a front vise that looks A LOT like Adam's and Andrew's.

Wiley

Re: OMG Wiley...

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Thanks, Conger.

Well, mine is mostly simple carpentry, compared to a really complicated affair such as a Klausz-type bench with the traditional tail vise and shoulder vise. Also, mine is lagged into two walls, which simplifies the understructure a lot. One thing that made it much simpler was a storebought maple top. I got mine from HIghland Hdwe, and was very happy with it. Really not much to dovetailing the wraparound skirt, either, except to put the tails on the long board (the one in front), cause if the pins are put on the long board, it's gonna take a real long couple of clamps to get the marks transferred.

Hope things are going well in Munich!

Wiley

Re: Hold downs

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Don,

And thanks to Sir Wm for posting the link.

Don, those Veritas holddowns are made with concentric rings milled into the shafts, and they will get a very positive bite in anything. So I would say there is no minimum thickness, however, if you were much thinner than about 1-1/2" (i'm guessing here) the action of the holddown would probably wallow out the hole pretty quickly, and you'd have to glue shavings in to tighten it up from time to time, but that's no big deal.

One thing I should comment on. I use those holddowns to secure the off-end of boards being edge-jointed. When photographed, the bench skirt only had a couple of holes. Jeez, I just couldn't bear to make Swiss cheese of it. However, I have since added a two echelons of holes at different heights and distances from the front vise (in the traditional way). Having a variety of holes in the skirt allows the board being edge-jointed to rest directly on the shank of a holddown, or else a 4" bench dog stuck into a hole. If the off-end of the board is more or less flapping loose, and you just reach over with the pad of the holddown to clamp it to the skirt, the board will slip under planing pressure, no matter how tight the clamp. At least in my hands. So you need enough holes in the skirt to provide direct support. Dooo'h.

Those Veritas holddowns are expensive, but I don't want to sell mine. Wiley

Re: And the bench (if interested)

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hello Chris,

Good analysis! But as it happens, I am left handed, and when edge-jointing plane left to right--away from the wall. The vise arrangement is dictated by light and the need to avoid obstructions in the space--so I adjust to it. When face-jointing, I sometimes plane into the end vise, and sometimes away depending on circumstances. Molding planes, moving filletster, panel raising plane--all are right to left toward the wall, but that's not a problem unless the work is more than 6 feet long.

I envy the folks with a bench out in the middle of a big floor!

Wiley

Just a thought

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>[mounting soapbox] What I like about shop furniture is that you get to test things like dovetail spacing and pulls, etc.--before you put them on your next project, and without fear of failure. I mean, you could think about shop furniture as being a genre of its own, with its own needs and specs and materials--or you could think about it as the stalking horse for your next big project. In the latter case, you might prototype two or three new ideas, and if they're not perfect, so what? But the insight received will provide confidence to make adjustments and incorporate the new ideas on the main project to follow. [getting off soapbox].

Lapping the sole of a 604-1/2 can lead to some great ideas, too!

Wiley

Note: Website problems!

Roger Nixon

>It appears sometime over the weekend my webhost sold out to another company and killed off my website. The new host's webpage is in Spanish only and I can't find out what has happened.

The Traditional Tools site will reopen soon (with a different host!) but I don't know if I can get my latest backups from the old site.

Restored dovetail link *LINK*

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Roger Nixon did some computer magic to restore the link to his website.

Wiley


Bench drawer w/dovetail pattern

Re: Restored bench link *LINK*

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>The other lost photo--drawer goes into this bench.

Wiley


Bench