I had the pleasure of attending a Washington DC Woodworkers Guild meeting this week where Chris Gochnour did a presentation/demonstration on mortise and tenon construction. He used a sweet little Stanley No. 50 plane to plough a groove in a rail for a door. I'm completely new to using hand tools like these specialized planes, but I have to tell you, while I love my power tools, the speed, silence, and I have to imagine the satisfaction too, of using this plane was very attractive.
I'm now looking to acquire one of these and am wondering if they are hard to come by, and what I should be looking for, and looking to avoid. For example, his had a metal handle that looked dimpled all over it. I did a quick look on ebay and a lot of them had wood handles, and seemed to be almost new in the box in England. Are these wooden handled units as good as the metal handled ones, or should I avoid them? If I should avoid them, why? If you could recommend a source in which to look for these, I would appreciate it.
Chris also used a #71 router plane which was really nice too. I have the same questions listed above for this #71, namely are there any I should avoid?
Lastly, if the wooden handled ones are good, has anyone purchased one from an ebay seller in the UK, and if so, how did it go?
>Welcome Todd, this is how we snare folks into our quieter, more therapeutic world. Stanley started putting the wood handles on them in 1942 � either one will work fine. One functional note is that some later models have the lever blade advance that can be helpful if you are new � I think all the wooden handled ones have this.
Get one where you can � eBay is good, but check the parts carefully. You probably want a full set of cutters and make sure the fence and rods are there. Presuming you are in the US, you don�t have to go to the UK � there will be plenty from here that come up (nothing against those in the UK, except the postage).
Same with the 71, although I�d get a �late� model (like after 1920) that has the front shoe that can act as a throat of sorts if you need it. They came with 3 cutters so you want one with all three.
>I have both planes you are talking about. Sounds like you are pretty new to hand planes. You need to point your browser to Patrick Leaches supertool.com website and head for his "Stanley Blood and Gore" pages. You will find complete descriptions of those planes and what to look out for.
Both the #71 and #50 have "loose" parts that are frequently missing on ones that turn up in the wild. A complete #71 should have three cutters and a depth stop (help me out folks if I'm wrong). The #50 has lots of parts. I believe (I'm at work, not in the shop) it should have 10 cutters, several stops and the frequently missing chip deflector. Leach talks about all this. You can usually buy the missing parts, but at a price.
As far as the wood handles, I can answer that. My #50 is the black casting as you describe. As far as I know, all #71's have woodend knobs, though there is more than just rosewood.
I think there are a number of people here that have the #50, so they should be hoping in on this.
>The Stanley #46 would be a more expensive initial outlay than the #50, but probably a better tool in the long run. The blade (or iron, as it's referred to in the hand tool world) is skewed on the #46, supposedly making it easier to cut a groove without tearout; a lot of people prefer them, but I personally have not worked with one yet. There is also the #45 or 55, which has a lot more attachments available than the #50, and then there are the #'s 41-44, Miller's patent plow planes which look a lot better than the average combination plane. I don't recommend the Miller's patent plow planes for users, as they do not have the depth adjustment that the later combination planes do. I have a #50 plane which is a nice simple plow plane but just thought I would point out alternatives.
>I use a #50 quite often...but only as a beader, which is what it does best. Beads that can't be done any other way near as well or conveniently. Same with the #66 to bead curved surfaces. Beats grinding out a custom scratch stock.
As said below, some of the other combo planes may cut grooves better than the #50....but so does the table saw and router.
I know it's fun, but many would be better served for their money by acquiring tools that compliment instead of duplicate the machines most shops already use.
Block planes, shoulder planes, beaders, hollows and rounds (beats grinding either a custom shaper cutter or setting up the more-finicky #45 for short runs), compass planes, spar planes, scraper planes, chamfer planes, bullnode planes, fine smoothers....
...get my drift?
The most capbility for your dollar is a good idea now...you can collect for the fun of collecting later.
>I don't have a 50 but do have a couple 71's I have probably bought more planes from the UK than the US definatly more if you count the 50 woodies I got in one whack. I have had no problem with UK shippers. There mail is funny if you get somthing have it shipped Small Packet My last infill only cost 4 pounds in shipping Air mail. $7.00 US cheap. You can get a bad seller any where or a bad buyer as far as that goes. I have one of them on the end of the line now.
>50 is a good tool to have,there are several versions out there,the made in England one is nice and one will use the 50 for lot of things.
The 71,IMO, unless you pick up one dirt cheap and complete is waste of money. Will find the MF and Sargent versions lot cheaper and they will do the same job. Now you can "roll your own" for couple bucks. Have seen several versions shown here and St James bay makes a nice small one.
Dennis,who looks at some tools and wonders if anybody would use them enough to wear them out.
>No argument...although my uncle's old Bishop in my pic has the best saw steel I've ever used....even in my Disston 12's. And flipping the saw from the rip teeth to the crosscut teeth is a handy feature for use as a backsaw.
>I must agree I had one and sold it because of the handle it cut wonderfully but hurt my hand. I will keep the next one and make a handle to fit my hand.
I was as the Guild meeting too. I've only joined the Guild this year, and this was the meeting I've enjoyed the most, so far (though I am looking forward to the one on making wooden hand planes scheduled for January 2005). I was thrilled with the demonstration that Chris Gochnour put on. I'm also relatively new to woodworking, but all of my experience is with hand tools (except for a corded router, a hand drill, and a circular saw).
I see that you're getting some good advice here - though some of it seems contradictory (not terribly uncommon :-). The one thing to remember with hand tools is there is more than one way to skin a cat - that is, there are often more than one tool or process that can be used to achieve a certain goal. Probably true of power tools, too.
As far as Chris' tools are concerned and as others have mentioned, the #50 is principally a beading tool - but as you could see from Chris' demo, it makes a perfectly fine shallow, narrow grove. I suspect that Chris brought this tool because its a bit smaller and more portable than other combo planes - and therefore easier to transport from his shop/apartment to the meeting. I did hear him comment after the demo that the reason he likes the #50 is that the screws that tighten against the fence can be set more firmly, and that he'd found that those on the #45 and #55 sometimes slipped. I can't speak to that because I don't have a #50, but I do have a #45 and in my very limited experience I have not noticed this problem.
For those who weren't there (which I assume is the vast, vast majority) Chris used his #71 to get a particulary close fit on the T&M he was demonstrating. I had read about this technique, but it was fun to see it in action. As for his #71 - I think his is a fairly modern version (but atleast the handles were wooden) because of the color of the handles, and the "made in the UK" in the casting. I'm no expert in dating #71s.
Although Chris' demonstration was great, I'm not sure that I'd make my first hand tools a #50 and a #71.
Hang around here with us for a bit. I think most folks here are combo (power and hand tool) users using the right tool for the right job. Though it may seem a bit counterintuitive, as you could see from Chris' demonstration, you can cut M&Ts pretty fast using just hand tools - and the same is true for alot of other woodworking applications.
Anyway, good to "see" you here. Perhaps we'll bump into each other at the December Guild meeting.
>They work excellent for inlay work. If you mill a narrow cutter for it and use the fence. I usually just use the cutting gauge to mark my refernce lines and then use the 71 to clean out the groove. While it does take about 15 to 20 passes with the cutting gauge it is fairly efficient. I also use the 71 to clean out large hinge mortises. However I finally purchased a router this year so I tend to use that now. But they are two fairly practical applications that the 71 can be used on.
>I use a Record 050C and like it very much. It is a great plow and a great rabbet plane. The knicker is a much better design than the Stanley 45. It is also a lighter plane to use than my 45.
I love my Stanley 71. It levels the bottom of dados and sliding dovetail sockets. It trims tenon cheeks better than any other tool. Just hold the plane against the side of the tenoned board and taking light cuts in a small arc trim the cheeks. Then follow up with a shoulder plane that registers against the newly made parallel cheek and trues up the shoulder. Can't beat that for making extremely accurate tenons.
>some interesting options here�I�ll push the Record version of the 50, better adjuster�Blaah blaahh�It�s been all been said before�
Although I really like the wood handles of the later Stanley, seem nice and comfy�especially on cold days. A 50 can bead too, a 46 lacks this ability...
Don't diss a 71...It has it place, and it does its job well...provided you don't "need" one their nice to have handy. That said, I really like its smaller bro the 271 myself.
>The only shoulder plane that I have is Stanley 93 which has its limitations. Or at least, it does in my hands. I'm not ruling out a carbon based failure here...
I had some hand cut tenons to fit for the bedside tables I am (still!) building. The skirts of the table are flush to the legs. I tried using just the shoulder plane but my tenons ended up being rather over-laminated to compensate for my lack of skill.
Here's what I did:
a. Set the depth of the 71 to the distance of the mortice from the face of the leg.
b. Used the shoulder plane to get roughly to where I wanted it. I used a combination square to gauge roughly where this was.
c. Use the 71 to get to the final setting.
d. Use the shoulder plane to fit the tenon to the mortice.
Probably the long way around the barn but it worked for me.
From your description it sounds like your use of the #71 on tenons is similar to Chris Gochnour's in his demo. The major difference seems to be that Chris set up a piece of wood with a flat end in his vise that protruded out of the top of the vise the same distance as the height of the board he was working. This enabled him to put one part of the base of the #71 on his board and the other on his second piece of wood so that he could pare away at the excess on the tenon cheek without worrying about keeping the #71 balanced just right.
I forgot to check what kind of blade he was using. I assumed it was his old woman's tooth. Is that the blade you use?
Re: Your #71 use sounds similar to Chris Gochnour' *LINK*
George Huron
>Yes, you can put a board of equal thickness on the other side of the tenon to balance the forces on the router plane but it requires some clamping time. I find that if you take lighter passes (with a sharp 1/2 inch router blade) and you simply hold one handle flat and take pivoting cuts by swinging the outboard handle and taking cuts that are about 1/2 the width of the blade, you can trim the tenon cheeks flat and remove wood in increments of a couple thousandths of an inch up to 1/64 of an inch at a time to sneak up on that perfect fit. Be sure to remove wood from both cheeks to keep the tenon where you want it.
Try this and I guarantee your tenons will fit much better and you will no longer dial them in with sandpaper, rasps or even shoulder planes (save them for shoulders).
>Thanks for everyone for your input, I really appreciate it. I did a quick search on Google and ebay, and it is interesting to see the price variations on the 50 for sale on auctions. Units on ebay from UK look like they may go for $100ish, while I saw two here in the states on another site for $365 and $425 each, but I'm guessing those are more collector's quality almost new planes.
>I just bought one today from Jim Reed (a frequent poster and cutter maker). Between the depth stop and the replacement set of cutters, I'm happy with it.
>Well, if you are going to spend $300 on one, let me know and I'll send you mine ;) Really, if you are patient you will find a pretty nice one in the $75 range on ebay. I think the wooden handle would be more comfortable to use than the cast iron handle. The #50 plane made after 1936 would have a wooden handle and a depth adjustment lever; the blades would have to have notches for the depth adjuster. I have a #78 with a similar depth adjuster that works pretty good, and I think if I was in the market for a #50 plane I would look for one with the wooden handle and depth adjuster.
>I use my #71 frequently for hinge mortising. First cut the outline with a box cutter, second chisel to the line, third rout out the waste with the #71. Works great and takes about two minutes each. I have not found another technique to come close to the simplicity and LACK of DUST.
>I use mine for hinges too. I do alot of hinges in my day job. I started doing them with a chisel. Graduated to router when I got my first one.Once I discovered the 71 there was no contest.I have 3 common sizes of butt markers in my box and start with them. Chisel to rough,then finish with the 71. It's not faster but I'm in no hurry.---Jack
