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Reality check regarding merchant (long)

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Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#1

Reality check regarding merchant (long)

Michael Kieta-near Ramstein Germany

>Hello everyone,

This probably belongs on the messages board, but this is the forum where I hang out, so..

Brief history: I�m an American living in Germany working for the DoD. During the past year or two, I�ve been upgrading my bandsaw with a riser kit, new spring, a Fastrak fence, and quick crank, and new blades. I�ve purchased all these items from Highland Hardware. Before I started this process, I also purchased some blades of the �pre-riser� length that I haven�t used.

Last night (European time), I called Highland Hardware about returning three of those blades for credit or exchange. To be honest, I didn�t expect any problems. The guy at HH immediately started questioning whether it would worth sending them back because of the shipping. I said I expected to have to pay for the shipping. He wanted to know when I had purchased them (more than a year ago), whether they were �wrapped,� and if they were in good condition. I said they were in the same condition as they�d arrived, because I hadn�t used them. This went on for awhile and he commented several times that I would be better off selling them here if I could find someone that wanted them. He said he couldn�t promise anything over the phone, because they might �just have to put them on the bargain table� in the store.

I was getting upset, so I said it didn�t sound like very good customer service. I said I had purchased a several items from them and I didn�t see the problem with returning unused blades for credit. He responded that they were in business, and I was way beyond the time limit for returns. He finally said I could send them the blades with �an explanation of the circumstances� and they would �try to be fair.� If the blades were in good enough shape, they would return them to their shelves and give me credit for them based on their price at the time of purchase and minus a �restocking fee.� Since everyone�s blades have increased significantly in price, it sounds like they have the potential to make a double profit on these blades, plus I pay them for restocking the blades.

Finally the reality check: I could understand his reluctance to promise anything over the phone without having seen the blades. But assuming these blades are in the same shape as they were shipped to me (they are) am I being unreasonable to expect HH to exchange my blades for the longer blades? There�s no difference in cost between the blades of different length. Or am I expecting too much and this is a standard business practice that shouldn�t bother me. I have a suspicion that this is a typical level of customer service, which explains why everyone raves about Lee Valley, Rob Lee, and Lie-Nielsen. In fact, if someone will tell me that LV would have done the same thing, I�ll do the healthy thing and release my resentment. Actually, I plan on doing that eventually anyway, but I'll get there faster.

I�ve already decided I�ll put the blades up for a benefit auction for WC rather than hassle with HH. But I�m unsure whether I will continue to do business with HH. That�s where the reality check comes in.

Thanks and sorry this is so long.

Michael

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#2

Ok...

Todd Hughes

>let me get this straight,.. you buy some saw blades over a year ago, nothing wrong with them but since then you changed your saw and you want to now a year later to return them.Now You are upset that while the people will take them back, Credit you even though it's long past there time limit for returns and was nothing at all wrong with thier blades, they want to charge you a restocking fee?...Yea OK , well at least you ain't mad at them for not paying the postage back....Todd

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#3

Steve Kubien

Having worked in retail.....

Steve Kubien

>I can understand their position. Most stores I have dealt with have a 30 to 90 day return policy (often different if the product is defective). They also have the problem that while these blades may be in perfect condition in the original packaging, the package may have changed in appearance (on the manufacturers end), the colours may have faded etc etc. We all know that this will not affect the performance of the blades, ask yourself if you would be happy receiving 'old' stock which you paid top-dollar for. Many people would not be satisfied. The retocking fee could also be a way to discourage you from returning them. It is their protection in case you return them and they are not in the condition you claim (I am not implying anything here!). If that were to happen, they would be faced with the expense of returning them to you.

I'm not sure but I think I would let it go.

Take care,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#4

That's what I needed!

Michael Kieta-near Ramstein Germany

>Todd,

I asked for a reality check, and you sure gave it to me! It served as a slap in the face, so I�ll sincerely say, �Thanks, I needed that!� in the immortal words of hysterics on screen.

Steve,

Thank you for sharing your experience and examples. I needed to see the other side.

As Rosanne Rossanadana would say, �Oh! Nevermind.�

Michael

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#5

Re: That's what I needed!

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I should probably stay out of this, as you now feel satisfied,but I don't always show good judgment.

I like HH and used to purchase a lot from them. I've visited their story several times, and am greatly impressed with it. One thing you get the feel for, having been to the store, is that the mail order stuff comes right off from the store shelves in most instances, and any returns would go back again to those store shelves. You also get the feeling that most phone ordering and questions are dealt with by the in store salesmen.

So,I suspect there will be some variation in service based on just which person on the floor was in a position to answer the phone. I have had several occasions over the years where a small error was made, and they usually just told me to keep the quart or can of whatever, and that they would send out the right thing that day. Can't ask for anything more customer friendly than that.

So, I'm both surprised and not surprised with your experiences. I'm not surprised because of their need to be able to sell the return as fresh stock, and because of the variation in who might be fielding your call. But I'm very surprised, and somewhat disappointed in your experience given your description of all the things you note you have bought from them. Obviously you have been a regular customer, and the nature of your purchases from them (specifically the riser block) illustrates the legitimacy of your request. In the same spot, I'd be much more oriented to taking a small loss in profit, compared to assisting a reliable and loyal customer. Urging you to sell the blades on your end, though perhaps a realistic solution, doesn't offer you any assistance what so ever. Basically, it says don't both me with your problem,but take care of it yourself. Whether the most pragmatic advice or not, it doesn't show a desire to help an existing customer. Any salesman should keep in mind that there is a cost to aquire each new customer, and it is almost always cheaper to retain a customer of demonstrated loyalty, than it is to gain a new one. The best customer/retailer relationships (for both sides) are those that extend for a long time and are based on a little give an take. In my case, I paid HH a lot more for a Delta 14 BS than I could have spent elsewhere, just because they had been very fair to me in the past. I wonder if you would be so prone now, to do something similar.

I've really written too much already, so I will close now, noting that while HH has been the illustration used, my comments are really not directed at them, but at customer/retailer relationships in general.

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#7

Re: What's the problem...

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I just read this description of the Anant plane from Highland's site. Sounds great and under $30 for all this precision milling and machining. Problem is...I'm from NYC and learned early....If it sounds to good to be true....it usually is. I'm inclined to pick one of these up and give it a try. Can this plane possibly live up to this descrition? Honestly?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Detailed Description

This new line of planes arrives at a very opportune time. You may have noticed that Record planes disappeared very suddenly earlier this year, thanks to Rubbermaid?s purchase and subsequent shutdown of Record Tools. This was a real blow, leaving woodworkers stuck between the mediocrity of contemporary Stanley bench planes and the price tag of Cliftons or Lie-Nielsens. Anant planes, to everyone?s good fortune, are not �modern� enough to have sacrificed the crucial construction details that make good, reasonably priced planes worth owning. In fact, these planes offer excellent value for the money. Their prices would be attractive in 1980 dollars, and today they?re simply a bargain for any hand tool enthusiast in search of good, affordable quality. Anant?s continuing production of No. 4-1/2 Smooth, No. 8 Jointer and No. 10 Bench Rabbet planes is especially good news for hand plane traditionalists.

Anant planes have been made in India since 1949. Machining quality is as good as vintage Record; soles and side rails are respectably flat and perpendicular, and can be polished completely smooth in short order. Frog surfaces are milled finer than either Record or Stanley have done in quite some time. Both handle and front knob are hardwood, another pleasantly retro idea. Their lacquer finish is frankly awful, but that?s easily remedied. Lever caps are fitted with levers, another welcome improvement over the late Record screw design.

Perhaps more important than any of the foregoing, Anant?s throat openings are discreet and properly milled. They average just under .200� wide; with the frog set correctly, the opening forward of the blade is only about 3/64�. The rear edge of the throat opening has been milled, exactly as it should be, at a 45? slope. With the frog set flush with this beveled surface, you?ll note that the iron?s ultimate point of support is actually the sole casting, stabilizing the iron right up to the heel of the bevel, a good 3/32� closer to the action than the lowest point on the frog. This is no minor detail. Even the most modestly experienced worker will feel a distinct difference in performance if the throat isn?t milled to provide such support.

Overall, we're positively impressed with the quality of Anant planes, and we?re pleased to recommend this new line of moderately priced, fully functional tools.

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#8

Re: What's the problem...

John, NY

>Mine is good! Better than my new, Made in UK [being a Brit, that is a tough statement to make] Stanley #4.5...

You do get what you pay for but the Anant comes at a better rate of return than Stanley dollars [at least mine did, I have no idea what their quality control is like beyond my sample size of 1]. Mines gonna tide me over 'til I have $350 for a LN! Its useable...

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#9

Re: Hogwash

William Duffield on the Cohansey

>Anant planes�are not �modern� enough to have sacrificed the crucial construction details that make good, reasonably priced planes worth owning.

If the casual observer will note, in addition to making this statement, they make no mention whatsoever of Lee Valley or any of their revolutionary modernizations and significant improvements of plane design. Do they think we are still living in the early 20th Century? Do they think Lee Valley's prices are unreasonable? The spin they put on price vs. quality vs. innovation also hopes the consumer will somehow forget the significant improvements Lie-Nielsen has made in the design, materials, precision, quality, and thus performance of their planes vs. the old Stanleys.

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#10

Re: Hogwash

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I tend to agree. I didn't want to be to inflamatory, but they seem to have an agressive marketing pitch geared towards targeting newbies. I'm hoping that these planes can live up to expectations, but for those who don't have a frame of reference, this could be enough to turn someone off to handtools alltogether. I seem to remember a post not to long ago which was a cry for help. The poster after three months of trying to tune his Anant plane to get a shaving, was ready to throw it in the garbage and give up.

I would also think that given the best alternative, a similarly priced vintage plane would be more preferable as an option. Atleast you know you'll get a quality cutting iron, materials and fit and finish, and a plane capable of performing all woodworking operations that it's designed to perform.

For some reason, some are scared by oldtools, thinking that they need to memorize all kinds of flow chart factoids and be a metalworker to get one into shape, but that is a horse of a totally different color.

This Stanley #3 is one of my favorites. It didnt cost me much when I got it. I love finding planes covered in greasy grimey dirt. They look like h*ll but clean up to excellent using the right solvents, in no time at all. The grease seems to protect and preserve the plane, leaving only a beautiful patina when removed, and the rust only seems to cling to the surface with no pitting.


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Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#11

Re: What's the problem...

Greg Sloop

>I don't think Michael ever really thought that HH was *obligated* to take them back.

I think he makes it clear that he knew he was requesting something out of the ordinary.

His question wasn't,

"What can I legally force HH do to..."

it was more on the order of -

"I've sent them a lot of orders, I bought these blades and the riser kit that made their replacement necessary all from HH. Wouldn't it seem reasonable for them to really make an effort to work with me?"

So, IMHO, these pointings to the terms of sale and such aren't very useful - it's answering a question not asked.

That said...IMHO, really wanting to do things right for the customer, I'd personally have offered better service. But, perhaps if I ran HH we'd be broke in 18 months.

I just tend to agree with Lyn. Having loyal customers is a very nice thing. I think it can be the difference between surviving and not. Even taking a 50% loss on three bandsaw blades isn't going to be a huge hit. (I suspect there's nearly that much profit in them in the first place.) So, in short, you may have risked hundreds or even thousands of dollars in future sales and the profits that accrue from those sales to save perhaps $60 in a return.

I do understand the hesitation to take them back. I can understand saying that we can't promise anything. But I think reasonable and *nice* would have been - "We'll agree to take them back if you ship them at your cost, and they look in new and resellable condition. If we have to mark them down significantly, you agree to work with us in reducing the costs to us."

But that's just my opinion.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Reality check regarding merchant (long)

#12

Whoa!

Bob Hackett

>That sounds strangely familiar.Wait a minute,I`m getting that deja-vu thing again.I`m 10 and standing with my dad in a local hardware store(the kind that was locally owned and used to cater to the community),everybody knows the man behind the counter because his family has run this place for generations.He knows exactly what we need and where to find it.He disappears into the back and brings the things we need out quickly then jokes with my father and afew of the other customers as he puts it on my Dad`s bill.Wait,the vision is fading...

Probably just as well,I need to run down to the borg and see if I can find some Chinese hardware to fix my imported,metric powertool I picked up off the net.The one that broke the week after the warranty was up.

Some things just don`t last...

Mainely,Bob

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