Stanley #7 Use or Sell?

My Question wasn't....

Todd Hughes

>why would someone bid this high on this plane BUT rather why would a person looking for a user plane be willing to pay a premium for a plane that is in near mint collector condition to use when a slightly lesser condition plane would perform just as well...Sort of like saying I'm looking for a car to drive to the supermarket in and bidding on a vintage Duesenberg. Now nothing wrong with that but you do sort of have to scratch yer head, eh?

Don't understand comparing prices between a vintage stanley and a new made one as the new made ones are so much cheaper made they can hardly be considered the same plane even if they might go for more when new.When comparing prices probably best to compare prices between more simular items such as other vintage Stanleys in the same condition to determine if you got a good deal....Todd

Re: yet another answer

walt quadrato

>Todd,

Remember your first anvil? First tool tale...it's all a progression...or a slippery slide, or both...whichever metaphor floats yer boat. I think it's sort of like that.......

walt

My first Anvil

Todd Hughes

>When I first got into blacksmithing I needed an anvil so ran a wanted to buy blacksmith tools add in a large Farm paper. Had an old guy call with a forge and an anvil clear up in Pensitucky somewhere.When i asked him what he had he told me "the anvil is in great condition and he thinks it is made out of some type of metal and the forge goes Whooo Whooo when you turn the handle"...OK. Long drive later and I am a proud owner of a put together forge and a piece of crap anvil. I know he kept it in a barn because i had to move several truckloads of junk to get to it but sure looked like it was stored at the bottom of some lake.Today I wouldn't even pick it up for free let alone drive that far and pay money for it.I used that anvil for about 6 months, learned alot,[including that I wanted a better anvil !] made some things on it that I sold then bought a better one, which I then sold and bought my big Fisher which I will never sell.Not a perfect Anvil but is good enough for me and i feel no need to upgrade.

Was funny but that first rusted and busted Anvil I put out in front of my old shop as a deco item and one day some guy stopped by and wanted to buy an anvil to put on his porch for a country look.Sold it to him for a very large profit and it got me to thinking about selling tools. Guess that old ugly Anvil did change my life.

Never had an urge to buy a really nice condition tool to use.....Todd

Re: yet another answer

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>Todd, the reason I compared old tools to new Stanley and Record planes was because of the price range I was willing to pay then. I've learned a lot from my old planes but I don't care if my planes are vintage or new. I learned a lot of things because I had vintage planes and a lot of things took longer because of them. When I first started I had a hard time crossing certain monetary thresholds. This was mostly a mental barrier. For me to have compared old planes with other old planes would have required more of the rusty things. There are many reasonable but different points of view about this subject. Listening to all of these arguments as a newbie was confusing. Like everyone else, I've learned from my mistakes.

Re: An Asnwer

Tony Z.

>Why I've (almost) quit the _bay: too many times I see things that are not there. I should know better, but, I have that buyer's "jones" to buy and I fail to see one of the saw guides missing in the Godell-Pratt mitre box picture, or that the M-F breast drill has gold paint on the handles, and so on. Plus the prices, with shipping cause very few bargains to remain out there!

Yeah, I still look everyday. I try to be very careful in my looking. And I still screw up when I want something. My best buys remain at fleas, and the occasion LFOD auction and one or two good (old items) stores (not quite antique stores or malls). Guess I just ain't cut out to buy on online auctions!

Re: yet another answer

Todd Hughes

>Actually now with ebay and it's completed auction feature it is rather easy to compare "old Planes with old Planes" to see what they are "worth" with out actually having to buy more of those "rusty things" ......Todd

Re: yet another answer

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>True, but the biggest limitation of ebay is not being able to physically inspect before you buy. Still, you're right. It's a quick and dirty way to get a lot of info.

Re: Another vote for eb*y

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hey Tony,

While it ain't perfect, I think it has every Tom D & H digging through their garage, attic and barn for Grandpa's hidden treasure. This has the added benefit of bringing more of these oldtools out into the marketplace....Even some thought to be rare are turning up in numbers.

I'm sure that alot wouldn't bother if they *knew* that type 17 jack plane wasn't really worth a gazillion dollars. If they knew anything about tools...I sure would miss those "rare vintage mint condition wood planer" descriptions I've become so fond of.

Time for a paradigm shift

Bob Hackett

>Instead of all this "How come this and how come that" back and forth,how about alittle help and a point in the right direction for an admitted new guy?

If you don`t want to bother with rehabbing old iron(and it`s not for everybody)then rather than buy a mint old tool,which may not work properly(Why do you think it`s still mint after all those years)I`d suggest contacting people like Walt or Roger or afew of the other good gentlemen here on this forum who sell already rehabbed planes ready to go.

That #7 you have may need far more work than an old rust bucket minus the rust.If it doesn`t perform up to standard then will the seller take it back?

The folks who rehab/make planes and post here are reputable people who know what it takes to make a plane perform to it`s potential.They test them before they send them out the door and stand behind thier work.

It would be hard for a new hand to go wrong getting a first(or second or third+)plane from someone like Walt or Steve Knight.When you factor in how much time it takes for you to tune a flea market find to thier level of precision I think you`ll find them to be a real bargain,besides,you`ll then have a reference to go by if you later decide to tune your own finds later.

Leave the mint old tools to people like Todd H. so he can continue to pick them up for a song and then sell them to deep pocket collectors for a heavy profit and can stop whining about them being put to use like they were originally made to do.

Mainely,Bob

Geee....

Todd Hughes

>wasn't aware I was "whinning" when I asked a question as to why someone that was a "user" would be interested in paying top dollor for a near mint plane instead of just buying a nice example in lesser condition. I am glad that Bob has come around to agree with me that mint condition tools would probably be better left to collectors though in this particular example I think it was a user that drove the price up and not some dreaded "deep pocket" collector boogy man.

My advice to new plane buyers....Buy a nice clean older Stanley that is in very good to excellent condition.It will perform the same as if it was mint. Learn to sharpen your blade then use the plane. Use it some more. If the blade is sharp and it doesn't work like YOU need it to THEN worry about it. Don't know how many guys have posted here over the years "I've been spending a week trying to tune my plane and I am having trouble getting X " I have often asked them how the plane worked befor they started. Almost to the man I get a blank look as they have not even tried the plane befor starting to "Fix" it. How come?....Got me, guess because they have read somewhere that you have to do this or that to get it to work and instead of just trying the tool out they go ahead and work on it. you would think they would want to at least see how much the plane is improved by thier "tuning" but since they don't try them out first they never know.....Todd

Good point Patrick

Roger Nixon

>People just getting started don't have a good point of reference. After some experience finding tools and knowing how to tell good from bad is much easier. Paying a premium for a fine vintage tool isn't nearly the mistake of paying the same money for a new, poor quality tool (which is what I did on my first plane). Like Todd's anvil story below, even missteps can have a good ending anyway :).

I'll see your "rare vintage mint condition wood pl

Ernie Miller Topeka

>And rais you two hard to find 110's slightly rusted. That is not pitting it is a hang hole.

Nice!!!

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I just did a search for nice!!! and got 219 matches

(as in "Rare Vintage Wood Planer Nice!!!":-)

Re: Another vote for eb*y

Tony Z.

>I ain't complaining about the medium, I complaining about my unabashed inability toget them bargains! Think maybe I'm just stingy, and sort of limit my buys to the lower end stuff. I ain't no good at this kind of thing! One time, two of my partners and I were buying a vacant building from the asset recovery department of the local bank. All three of us were partners in the same company, and we bid against one another, for our company, taking a building we could have got for $104,000 paying $115,000. Se what I mean Jonathan!

In my opinion (modified agreement) *LINK*

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>It's always a little scary to agree with Todd...

In my opinion, it's worth doing the following to a newly acquired used plane:

1. Clean off the dirt, major rust (see cleaning note below), dead bugs, etc.

2. Wax operating surfaces, and lubricate mechanisms so they work well.

3. Sharpen the iron. Don't skimp. Sharpening is the majority of tuning; all else is refinement.

I like to use SOS/Brillo pads for cleaning, followed by drying and a shot of WD-40 to swot up the last of the water. Others like other approaches; whatever works, keep it simple.

I have a lot of respect for Thom Trail's and RJ Whelan's expertise, but have yet to apply their 19 steps to plane-tuning nirvana to any plane. Maybe after I'm living in retirement-land and am making stuff with hardwood instead of doing @#$@#%# carpentry all the time (note the magical thinking: that after retirement, I'll have money to buy hardwood). So far, my lazy approach has worked.


The 19-step program

Re: no vote for eb*y *LINK*

walt quadrato

>wether it be ebay or the flea or the side of the road...most planes I've picked up over the years will perform passably in the raw. but, most every one needed some TLC to perform up to specs. Aside from the obvious upside down blade syndrome that seems to plague some of them..soles are usually not quite flat enough...and I am not a total flat sole freak...I've only seen only a handfull of planes that didn't need some sort of sole work...I don't mind flattening a sole..it's a dirty thankless job..but a necessary one. the sole has to be co-planer at the front..before the mouth...after the mouth and the back...and parallel to the sides. I think some may have ended up with age warp...or extreme temperature warp..or they came that way from the factory. you cannot see that on an ebay plane..lots of time you can't tell from a flea plane if it's crusty enough.. everything I sell I guarantee 100% satisfaction..always did that with albums/cds and just followed through with tools. To paraphrase "you buy it to use it..not to look at"

walt q


BCR toolworks

Re: Another vote for eb*y

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>I didn't think I was disagreeing with Todd. He asked a question and I told him why I pay a little more sometime. I don't even try with mint, one-of-a-kind, or rare stuff, but I do like them newish. I think Todd and I are mostly in agreement. Users pay more for what they want. For example, a nice post WWII Disston back saw with the "ugly handle" will sell for less than a WWI era saw. I got a 14" Disston that had never been used. It still had its protective coating on it with a pristine beech handle. But it was "ugly" and this was before 14" saws were in demand as much as 12" saws. I got it off of ebay for less than $20 (I think that's right). Including shipping.

Re: Another vote for eb*y

Cameron

>If you want something enough you pay what YOU are willing to pay for it. I've overpaid on some planes simply because I wanted that particular plane at the time.

On the other hand I've also bought some planes for a song - including, just recently a 16" Norris number 54 for (dare I say it??) .... $15.....and that's about $12 U.S. Not a premium quality Norris, understandably, but a Norris nonetheless. Plus the 54's don't show up that often. I can't recall seeing one on eBay in a while?

Re: Another vote for eb*y

Cameron

>Sorry, I should've posted a "gloat" alert for the above post. Apologies to all.

TWEEEEEEET Foul Called on bob For.....

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Bad choice of words.

[Todd Hughes] can stop whining about them being put to use like they were originally made to do.

Sorry Ol' Sport, but I gotta call ya' on this one. In this instance, and especically to this person the word "Whining" is way out of place, and seems to be a bit hurtful. If nothing else I think if you still wanted to express this thought that you should of used "complaining" in place of whining. You had an excellent post going until you got to this part.

Todd makes many a good point and I enjoy reading his posts as he brings up ideas and points of views that have escaped me. I've never felt that Todd was whining, quite the contrary, I'd say that he has done alot of educating.

Now, being a fellow military man, I know that the word Whining is a big part of our vernacular, as in "Quit whining, you ate yesterday didn't you", or Quit whining, you won't work more than 24 hours today" etc, etc, etc. Yeah, we use it constantly, and in that setting it fits, and more importantly works, as it is used as a motivational tool. The use of it in your reply to Todd was as I said before Hurtful, which I really don't thing you realized at the time as you are so used to using the word.

Sorry to call the foul on ya Chum, but I had to.

Truth be told, if anybody does any whining around here it's ME! Sometimes I even say to myself "Quit whining about Maine, your in good health, got tools, decent home, wife, etc, etc,

Todd O.

Re: TWEEEEEEET Foul Called on bob For.....

Bob Hackett

>Hey,I originally typed "sniveling" which is an infantry term we both are familiar with but deleted it and typed in "whining "as I thought it was more civilian.

I figure Todd is a big boy and the way he throws barbs my way I figured he could take it too,my bag for thinkin` his skin was thicker.

Thanks for standing up for him.Yet another of the many reasons I`m proud to be a friend of yours.

Mainely,Bob

Re: TWEEEEEEET Foul Called on bob For.....

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Well Bob, actually, I think sniveling would of been a better word than whining, but "fussing" might of been the best choice in the end.

Something about the word Whining just rubs me wrong I guess. IMO that word is reserved for only the lowest of the lowest low, and is used as a stong insult in the Navy. I guess that's why I was so shocked to see the word dircected at Todd, as while some may not agree with his thinkinhg on some subjects he is FAR from a whiner.

I merely thought that it was a bit of a strong word that you really didn't mean to use, but being that you are a Military man it is just part of your "natural" speech.

Todd's a big boy and can fight his own battles and don't need me to do it for him to be sure, but the word wrankles me so bad I had to speak up.

I don't think you'll find Todds skin none too thin, after all his only reply was "Gee, I didn't think I was whining". Whearas I'd probably be burning up 95 N.

Ahhhhhhhhhh well, perhaps I just a funny bird, and should just stay in my nest with my beak closed eh?

Thanks for being man enough to take the Foul without going ballistic. Says alot about your personal character. Now DROP AND GIVE 50!! ;~)

Todd O.

You`ve been out too long Todd O.

Bob Hackett

>The commands are; DROP,BEGIN.When asked how many the customary reply is "Till I get tired".Don`t make me put on the hat and come down there.

"Permission to recover Drill Sgt."

Keep pushin`,I ain`t even broke a sweat yet.

Heck Todder,you probably were wearing blue before they went to Front-Back-Go.Now there`s a fun way to spend the day.

RECOVER!

Mainely,Bob-Missing Fort Lost in the Woods MO. and his battle buddies in 2/10 infantry.

It's OK

Todd Hughes

>Didn't bother me none at all.Actually I found it amusing as I don't think I was doing any whining, sniveling, squeaking, barking or crowing when I said a plane "that was in very good to excellent condition would perhaps be more appropriat" as a user then a mint one.Made me smile that somone could think of that as whinning.... I was at first concerned that sombody else in the future not as understanding and forgiving as me might be upset if a response such as this was given to thier question but after Bob's post above where he said he felt he could single me out for such special treatment I wasn't so worried........Todd

You can count on me Todd

Bob Hackett

>Glad To be of service.

Mainely,Bob