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Which files for saw sharpening.

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Which files for saw sharpening.

#1

Which files for saw sharpening.

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>I've just won a couple of Ebay auctions of backsaws (didn't expect to win both :-) and now have five saws to sharpen. They a mixture of tenon, dovetail and one carcass saw.

I know that these will need re-sharpening so I will need to acquire some files for this purpose. Does anyone have the model numbers for the files that would be appropriate for these saws?

Also, I presume that a carcass saw should be filed as cross cut. Correct?

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#2

Re: Which files for saw sharpening. *LINK*

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Depends on the tpi....usually slim tapers and double slim tapers...browse thru here:


Vintage Saws

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#3

Re: Which files for saw sharpening. *LINK*

Ted Shuck

>If you have not seen Peter Taran's website, Vintage Saws, you will find it a tremendous resource for saw maintenance. The information about which files to use and a wealth of other information is there for the reading.

You are correct, carcass saws are files crosscut.

Ted


Peter Taran's Saw Filing Primer

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#4

Re: Which files for saw sharpening. *LINK*

Andrew F in Australia

>Mark,

they don't sell the files you need commercially for a small backsaw here any more as we're too small a market (double extra slim taper).

Your best bet is to buy a triangular riffling file for the small'uns as shown below. For the larger tpi, buy a 4 or 5" extra slim or slim taper file (still equilateral triangle in cross-section, the extra slim refers to how sharp the corners are.)

I've also stuck a link below to a good description of how to sharpen

Having said this, I pay $12- and get mine professionally done each time - cheaper, easier and better results.

Cheers,

Andrew


img

A good description of how to sharpen and what file

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#5

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I bought 3 dozen files off of e-bay slim taper for 16$ all top of the line made in the 50's so you might want to wait.

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#6

Sorry for the echo

Andrew F in Australia

>Took me a while to type up my response - same link as Bob and Ted.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#7

Re: Which files for saw sharpening. *LINK*

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Also...here's an illustrated addendum I did to Taran's excellent sharpening instructions.


Teaching Handsaw Filing

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#8

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Mark

My experoence is the same as Andrew's - I can only get double extra slim files (sold by Bunnings), which are less than ideal for 15 tpi dovetail saws. Do you have any knowledfge of locally available double extra slim files?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#9

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>I'm going to make a few phone calls tomorrow. If I find anything useful I will let you know.

My guess is that the specialty hardware stores (i.e. NOT Bunnings :-) will be the places to look. Same thing actually for all hardware really. Bunnings is really a DIY store. I got a Hafele catalogue recently (through my brother) and if you have ever seen one of these and seen the range of kit that they sell, you will realise how badly off we are with such a small retail market.

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#10

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

Andrew F in Australia

>HI Mark,

Nicholson don't make/import them, so don't look too hard.

Pferd have a limited selection, available through specialty suppliers. They aren't cheap.

I ended up ordering the needle files through Blackwoods when I had an account there.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#11

Re: Which files for saw sharpening. *LINK*

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>You could try mailorder thru Lee Valley. They have all the sizes you need.

regards

Angus Barclay


Saw sharpening files

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#12

carcass saws always rip

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Guys,

Carcass saws dervive their names from carcass joinery. They are the dovetail saws sized for making a dovetailed carcass. Saws for drawers should be small.

18th and 19th century English cabinetmakers, who were running out of wood, made drawer sides out of 3/8, or 1/2 oak. They needed short, fine toothed saws for that. Their carcasses were often 4/4 deal or the like, veneered, again because of the wood shortage. They needed a different saw for that, thus the carcass saw.

By constrast North American makers, having plenty of wood, used solid hardwood for carcass and often 4/4 pine, cedar, or tulip drawer sides. They also had "dufftail" and "carcass" saws, but they could have gotten away with a single saw as I do, (believe it or not).

Traditionally, there is no evidence suggesting any 18th c backsaws were filed cross cut. Regardless, I recommend filling at least one back saw, preferably a longish one (14-16") 12 ppi x.

If you search the archives, I once wrote very specific suggestions for which backsaws should be filed which way and why. That may be worth reading.

Let me know if you find it. I'm interested in some new saws, and I need to know how to file them too!

Adam

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#13

Adam, is this it?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I don�t know whether you are asking about set or tpi? With the utmost respect for Adria and LN, I wouldn�t use these saws as models for what you should do. They seem to be beautifully made saws, but not necessarily set up correctly for all work. Saws are complicated things

I think you are doing the right thing buying a few more things than you need and experimenting with them, BTW. Think that's a reasonable approach, FWIW.

My advice would be different depending on the work you do, but this sentence is pretty specific. My question is about tpi for the various uses in casework, dovetails, rip, crosscut, etc. I'm assuming you are working the woods I use (tulip, pine, walnut, mahogany, cherry).

In the 18th century, it seems cabinetmakers filed all saws rip. How and why they cross cut with rip saws escapes me. Untill we figure it out, I�d recommend taking your longest saw (the 14�) and filing it cross cut. Specifically: 12ppi (or so) 20-30 degree rake, 20 degree fleam (for hardwoods). Set can be very low for obvious reasons. I don�t recommend no set.

Take one of the 6� gent�s saws (the one with the narrower blade) and file that as fine as possible. 15ppi isn�t too fine. Use a 5 degree rake (obviously 0 fleam- it�s a rip saw) and set very lightly. I�d file the near teeth, then turn the saw around and file the near teeth again to push any burr inside. Don�t stone this saw! Reserve this guy for thin stock, 1/2� or less.

Turning your attention to the Jackson, I�d make that saw your primary drawer dovetailer (because of its length and handle). File 12-14 ppi rip. If you are new to dovetailing and hand sawing and have trouble getting your saws to start, go with a 5 degree rake. You deserve every possible advantage. Once you get better, consider changing this to 0 rake (easy change at some subsequent filing). A moderate set is a good thing for a beginner. The saw cuts slower, but its easier to correct a wayward cut. I recommend not resetting this tool. As you cut more, you get better. As you sharpen, you gradually remove the set.

Take your pick of whatever 12� saws you�ve got left. File this the same as above but 12 ppi max. This will be your carcass saw.

The last backsaw every cabinetmaker needs and none of us have is a true tenon saw. This should be 9-11 ppi and 18� long. You could try making one out of a miter saw. In the meantime, do what I do and use your carcass saw as best you can.

Last words: In case you haven�t guessed, my preference is for very low rake rip saws. Low rakes cut faster, but are trickier to use. I also prefer low sets on all back saws. I prefer coarser saws since I think really fine saws clog in thick material. In general, the thinner the stock, the finer the teeth. Forget about �smooth� cutting (Disston marketeering). That�s almost always a red herring in my opinion. I've arrived at 12ppi as the right pitch for 4/4 stock.

[Adam Cherubini]

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#14

Re: Which files for saw sharpening. *LINK*

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>There seem to be a lot of sources of Double Extra-Slim Tapered files over here.

Here is a Froogle search:


Double Extra Slim Tapered File Sources

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#15

Re: carcass saws always rip

Ted Shuck, Centennial, CO

>In my mind, probably due to nomenclature used by current manufacturers of backsaws, I think of a carcass saw as a general purpose, medium sized (12") backsaw which is filed crosscut. It is used for all those cuts used to make a carcass which are not rip cuts.

If the saw is used to make dovetails, I would call it a dovetail saw. These are usually 8" or 10" saws filed rip. A tenon saw is a much larger backsaw filed rip, 14" to 18" long.

I don't find as much need for a mid-sized backsaw filed rip as I do for one filed crosscut. Dovetails are cut with a dovetail saw, tenons with a tenon saw. Pretty much everything else is a crossgrain cut and is cut with the crosscut carcass saw.

Just because all backsaws were filed rip at some time in the past doesn't mean we need to keep filing them all that way today. I find the crosscut carcass saw to be one of my most-used saws. I'd feel pretty put out if somebody made me file it rip. ~(;^}

Ted

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#16

I agree (plus saw trivia)

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Ted,

I agree.

Just because all backsaws were filed rip at some time in the past doesn't mean we need to keep filing them all that way today. I find the crosscut carcass saw to be one of my most-used saws. I'd feel pretty put out if somebody made me file it rip. ~(;^}

There is no traditional precedent or name for this saw. I wouldn't call it a carcass saw, but whatever we choose to call it, I believe its an essential tool. 12" is too short IMHO. I prefer 14-16" for the cross cut backsaw. This length saw was once called a sash saw, so that's the name I've used for mine, but traditional sash saws were rip filed.

Coincidentally, the Hay shop in Williamsburg is currently filing all saws rip. Both Don McConnell and I have asked Master Headley about this practice. His response was that there is currently no evidence of x-cut hand saws.

Since both Don and I work by hand for money, we have been heretofore reluctant to relinquish our x-cut saws! Don has gone on to say that since we have evidence of x-cut filed timber saws, its conceivable that someone filed their hand saws X and those saws simply haven't been found.

For my part I have to question the definition of rip filing. My definition would be 0 fleam, but its possible they used some transitional filing for all saws, i.e. a touch of fleam, maybe 10 degrees rake. See, I've tried cross cuting with my rip saws (which all have 0 fleam and very little rake) and I didn't like it AT ALL. Like Don, I can't imagine the guys who brought us the dado plane and center bit were too stupid to file a saw x-cut!

Adam

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#17

Very interesting

Roger Nixon

>Jr. Strasil files his rip saws in a hybrid fashion pretty much along the specs you mentioned, Adam. They cut faster than any other saws I have experienced.

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#18

Re: I agree (plus saw trivia)

Todd Hughes

>Salamens dictionary of wood working tools list a carcase saw as being a back saw between 10-14 in. The term Carcase is a period term for sure as in the 1800 tool inventory of tool merchent Christopher Gabriel he lists carcase saws. doesn't give a size for them but they are listed between 7 and 9 in. dovetail saws and sash saws so the point could be made that they fall somwhere in between the two in size which they would if they were 10-14 in. long

While no saws are listed as being cross cut some are differented as being Rip which makes you wonder why say they are rip if ALL saws were rip at the time? I will admit that many if not most of the older saws I have are rip saws. I think there are several reasons for this.Saws were expensive and maybe some only had one general purpose saw and choose a rip, maybe more men sharpened their saws rip because it is easier to do,more ripping was done back then befor the advent of electric saws but even still rip saws probably saw less usage then a cross cut saw and survived in larger numbers...speculating now.....Todd

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#19

Yes, Thanks. Summary.

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Here�s a summary with some revisions:

Jewelry box saw

=====================

- for small dovetails in thin hard woods.

6-8� Gent�s backsaw (turned handle). File as fine as possible. 18 ppi isn�t too fine. Use a 5 degree rake (obviously 0 fleam- it�s a rip saw) and set very lightly. I�d file one side, then turn the saw around and file the other to push any burr inside. Don�t stone this saw! Reserve this saw for thin stock, 2/4 or less.

Drawer saw

==================

- for hard and soft woods 3/4 -4/4 stock.

8-10� open handled back saw. I like a short saw with a narrow blade, tapering toward the toe. File this saw 13-16 ppi rip. If you are new to dovetailing and hand sawing and have trouble getting your saws to start, go with a 5 degree rake. You deserve every possible advantage. Once you get better, consider changing this to 0 rake (easy change at some subsequent filing). A moderate set is a good thing for a beginner. The saw cuts slower, but its easier to correct a wayward cut. I recommend not resetting this tool at subsequent sharpenings. As you cut more, you get better. As you sharpen, you gradually remove the set. I don�t recommend no set.

Carcass saw

==============

-for 4/4 - 5/4 carcass dovetails.

10-12� open handled back saw

File 12-14 ppi rip. 0 rake, moderate to low set. A longer saw with coarser teeth, even one or two teeth less than the drawer saw above will feel dramatically different. This saw should cut fast. If you must choose between this saw the drawer saw above, choose the drawer saw. If your carcasses are softer woods, pine, tulip, etc try to file 12 ppi.

Sash saw/Joinery saw

=====================

- for dadoes, tenon shoulders, accurate cross cuts etc.

14�-16� closed handle. File 12 ppi x-cut, 20-30 degree rake, 20 degree fleam (for hardwoods). Set can be very low. I�m using the name sash saw, but real sash saws were used for sawing tenons in window sashes. They were shorter and finer toothed than proper tenon saws, but like tenon saws, always filed rip.

Tenon saw

===================

This is the saw that none of us have. 18� closed handle. File 9-10 ppi rip, and set it lightly. Although the principle use for this saw is undoubtedly sawing tenon cheeks on doors, wainscotting and other architectural details, this saw was ubiquitous in 18th centuy woodshops of almost every sort, which makes me want one even more.

Adam

Re: Which files for saw sharpening.

#20

Re: Yes, Thanks. Summary.

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>Thank you. That is exactly what I needed. I can do everything but the last "true tenon saw". The largest I bought is a 14" Disston (photo below) which will be sharpened as cross cut. I might send that one out to be done after I consult with Andrew F.


img

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