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Hancock Shaker Village

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Hancock Shaker Village

#1

Hancock Shaker Village

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>I'm interested in discussing the bench that is on the front cover of "The Workbench Book". The credits attribute the photo to the Hancock Shaker Village, Pittsfield, MA.

I'd like to speculate about the dimensions and joinery. Perhaps, someone here can help?? The top appears to be maybe 3 1/2" to 4" think for the first 12" to 15" and the remainder looks like 1" thick x 12".

The rear leg might be angled about 30 deg. to the right to resist racking from planing?? It may be fastened to the thicker portion of the top with a half-lap joint and possibly pinned?? Or maybe it's mortised into the top?

The front leg is tapped and inlet for a leg vise but has a twin screw mounted. Do you think the leg vise is still used for certain purposes?

The twin screw vise seems to be constructed very similar to how Adam C. described his twin screw. The circular wear marks may indicate that the front jaw is free floating and positions itself slightly differently depending on what it holds.

I'm guessing the screw heads are about 3 1/2" in dia. and the screw is probably 1 1/2" to 2"?? I'll just throw all this out and see if there is any interest in pursuing it :>)!!

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#2

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>There's more pics of it in Garrett Hacks books. No tail vise.

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#3

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>It looks to me like it's the same picture, just cropped differently.

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#4

Garret Hack's Bench

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Frank,

That's Garrett Hack's bench. Funny its good enough for cover of the book, but not deserving of any discussion inside (boy that book burns me).

My bench is a poor copy of that one, which is a good copy of the Dominy bench (now at Winterthur). The Dominy bench is of the French style and displays the typical characteristics of this ancient form: thick legs, flush with the front are mortised into a similarly thick top. The legs are drilled for holdfasts. It has a tail vise though (or at least one of the two has).

The Dominy bench, Hack's bench, and mine all use similar joinery. A thick plank is used for the main work area. All seem to be about 4" thick. A narrow 12-15" plank is more than sufficient for most work, and concentrating the legs in this narrow section adds stiffness and strength. But for tip over stability, the back legs are angled to give a wider stance front to back. Its not 30 degrees.

The other thing you will notice is that a thinner board is added to the back side where a tool tray might have gone on a Scandanavian bench. Mine is 2" thick and plenty strong, but I really don't work back there. Its helpful though. I made my bench wide enough to hold my widest furniture (or so I thought). But I recognized that there was a difference between holding and pounding or planing.

For all the research I did preceeding the construction of this, my second bench, I really failed to recognize the most important features of the bench: A good bench should be long. Mine is 6'. Traditional benches are 9'. The legs really should be flush with the front face to help with jointing operations. A sliding board jack is a neccessity I stupidly overlooked.

If a bench's primary use is planing, I blew it. Jointing is at least as important as surface work. I was keen on having a tail vise. But now I'm hot and cold about it. You can certainly do without one. You I look back at what I do with mine, its always some strange and atypical task (like making saw or chisel handles or the like).

Oh, the legs are simply mortised into the thick top. The specifics change, but there is no upper stretcher.

Adam

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#5

Re: Garret Hack's Bench

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>"I was keen on having a tail vise. But now I'm hot and cold about it. You can certainly do without one".

Adam, would you share your thoughts a little more about this. I am in the process of deciding whether to add a tail vice (to clamp boards for planing) or a traditional front vice (for ease of cutting dovetails). At present my bench has two Record 52-1/2 front vices, one at each end of the bench.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#6

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

Kurt Loup

>Frank,

Measured drawings for the bench start on page 222 of the Workbench Book. The top is 3 3/4" thick for the first 16". The rear two boards of the top are 1" thick by 22" wide. The legs are not angled and the leg vise screw is 1 7/8" diameter by 19 1/2" long, 14 1/4" threaded.

Kurt

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#7

Re: Hancock Shaker Village *LINK*

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont

>Hi frank,

I built my version of that bench and finished it this spring, while the original is very impressive, the size is overwhelming. I made mine from most of the measurements in the Landis book, but incorperated my own little details. I love the leg vise and use the tail vise all the time.

take care,

Jim


My Bench

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#8

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Jim, what is the diameter of your vise screws? Thanks.

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#9

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Kurt, the drawings you refer to are not for the bench on the cover of the book.

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#10

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Jim, I believe your bench is a version of the bench detailed on pg. 222 of Landis' book. The one I would like to explore is pictured on the cover but not discussed in the book.

You've done a masterful job of adapting the Shaker style to your own requirements. Guys like you keep raising the bar for all of us!

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#11

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

Kurt Loup, Baton Rouge

>Sorry, didn't read close enough. The HSV subject line threw me off.

Kurt

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#12

Carefull - two books, two different benches

Raymond in Trenton NJ

>This is kinda humorous; everyone�s referring to Landis� workbench book and correcting everyone else. Well, you�re all correct :o) Answer "which book is Frank looking at", and we�ll know which bench we�re talking about? The dust jacket on my hardcover displays the Hancock Shaker bench with plans for it in the back and the softcover shows Garrett�s bench with no plans and (very) little discussion on it.

With no end vise you can hold up boards by several methods. One end is held in the shoulder vise and the other end supported. Support is by resting it on a board jack (movable stand) or various forms of clamping (clamps, holdfast) against an apron or leg. Even though Adam secretly loves this book :o) I feel it is a good source of info and ideas for someone without a lot of prior WW experience (like me) or present WW experience (me again).

Raymond

who�ll be quite now.

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#13

Re: Garret Hack's Bench

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Dear Derek,

Let�s first agree that a tail vise is not required for face planing. Many, many benches have been built to effectively handle this important operation without tail vises. So tail vises certainly aren�t required. But before we discuss how those other benches function, let�s examine the tail vise:

I have read that tail vises were designed to facillitate planing of very thin stock. The original users were the continental European �ebenistes�, who got their name from working ebony and other fine woods.

While the tail vise is a fine way to secure stock to be planed, it doesn�t work all that well with thin stock, which calls the legend into question in my mind. Tail vise pressure can buckle thin stock. Also, the work must span the gap at the tail vise jaw. This distance can be as much as the distance between your dog holes (roughly 4� on my bench). Three or four inches may well be too much to span on thin hard woods.

For working larger or thicker boards, the tail vise works fine with a few caveats:

1)Obviously the bench must be longer than the stock. If not, you must revert to the non tail vise planing technique. And if that�s true, why not just use that technique all the time.

2)When roughing or truing a board of any length, its often helpful to plane across the grain. The tail vise system gives very little support in this direction. Toothed dogs can help.

We can�t seriously analyze tail vises without discussing the difficulty of installing them. Its not a simple mechanism in theory. It�s a whole corner of your bench that slides, must be strong and stiff, never sag, and is cantilevered. That�s an engineering challenge. I used the sliding metal plate design, which made sense to me. But my vise has worn and is sagging.

Lastly, I use the right hand side of my bench for cross cutting. The tail vise interferes with that.

So what is the solution? Well, tail vises are nice. People that have them, like them. I use mine for things other than planing. It�s a very strong vise. But I�m not sure it makes sense to add a tail vise for occasional use.

The benches in Williamsburg don�t have tail vises and I�ve asked the workers there how they like them. The always say something like, �Oh its just a matter of what you get used to�. I found this answer unsatisfactory. Having spent some time working on a bench with nought but an iron planing stop, I can see why the mechanicks at Williamsburg responded the way they did. The trick to using this bench is a mindset. You always plane into the stop. You can reorient the board quickly and easily, sit on the back end if need be. But make no mistake about it; this is a fast efficient, completely acceptable way to plane wood.

There are times however, when I find this approach frustrating. In these instances, I clamp a piece of scrap to the back of the bench. This can be done with two strategically placed holdfasts, or holdfasts alone can suffice. In essence, you are making a japanese trestle or a flexible sticking board if you will.

If you add a planing hook (crochet) to the left front face (just make it low enough for a plow plane fence to pass over) you have covered 90% of the planing operations you need. You can use a holdfast in lieu of the crochet if you like. Mechanical vises then become things you use for occasional work, not for face or edge planing. So if the vise is no longer used to hold boards for edge jointing, why place it on the left side? Why not place it on the right? On the left it will always interfere with molding planes and plows. On the right it will interfere only when the work is long. Well, surprise surprise, this is exactly what we see on early French benches. A hook on the left and a twin screw vise on the right. The Dominy bench similarly has a leg vise on the left and a twin screw nearer the right end (I think the big bench is 12 or 14 feet long).

I hope this makes my radical point of view clearer.

Adam

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#14

Re: Garret Hack's Bench

joel

>My bench is a lefthanded copy of the Klaus bench with a metal face vice. I find the tail vice usfule for planing thin stock but that isn't what it shines at. What it;s peachy for is grabbing something like a chair leg, with no screws to interfere and holding it rock solid. I use it more than my face vice.

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#15

Reply (longish)

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Adam

First of all, thank you for such a considered and comprehensive reply to my question.

Your comments certainly have given me pause for thought, and to help identify what I need to have (as opposed to want to have) in a working bench. Many (perhaps all!) of your personal working habits are shared by myself.

For some time I've been thinking that I really could use a left handed bench - which is notable since I am right-handed. It is just that I prefer working from the right side, using the right Record front vice to hold work when I handsaw. Ditto it I need to clamp small pieces of timber for edge planing - will use the right side vise. I had begun to question why I had a left-side vise. It was the one that I installed first, because this was traditional, but I never felt it was comfortable to cut at. It basically gets used when I have long lengths to edge join, when I can clamp both (joining) pieces together between the two front vises.

But I am am now experiencing the limitations of a Record vise, notably that it will rack when I clamp a long piece vertically since it can only go to one side and not in the centre of the vise (it is just too much effort to match the boards thickness with a spacer on the other side). I think that a useful addition to my bench would be a face vise at the left side just for dovetailing.

A planing hook may be more useful for planing wide boards, such as table tops. As you point out, a tail vise would not be wide enough anyway.

I guess that I began to want a tail vise because of the need to clamp thin stock (say 1/4") securely. So far I have resorted to planing stops, but never found these really satisfactory since the timber will move. A cumbersome affair of additional clamps would usually follow. But a planing hook may improve on all this.

Some food for thought. I will come back later with an idea I now have for the left side face vise.

Thanks again.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#16

Re: The Travelling dog

paul womack

>While the tail vise is a fine way to secure stock to be planed, it doesn�t work all that well with thin stock, which calls the legend into question in my mind. Tail vise pressure can buckle thin stock. Also, the work must span the gap at the tail vise jaw. This distance can be as much as the distance between your dog holes (roughly 4� on my bench). Three or four inches may well be too much to span on thin hard woods.

All agreed.

The buckling problem can be addressed by a little sensitivity on the handle by a careful craftsman,

However, with regard to diagonal (often scrubbing) strokes, you definitely ned more fixing than a single end stop, and a tail vise provides at least a double ended grip; with a bit more pressure (on thick stock) the friction will provide lateral hold too.

On the lack of support in the "gap" issue, there's a simple solution; Adam is considering tail vises from a "retro" viewpoint (even if he did use the non-trad metal plate implementation)

But there's a different tail vise, which doesn't (AFAIK) even have a traditional name.

If you sacrifice the "jaws" of the tail vise, you can just have a travelling doghole; the only "gap" in the continuous bench surface is a slot to allow the dog to travel. The workpiece is thus well supported.

Of course, this presents a design/use choice in your workbench design. That's why Landis wrote a book of variations, not a "here's the plan, not build it" book.

BugBear

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#17

Re: Reply (longish)

paul womack

>it is just too much effort to match the boards thickness with a spacer on the other side

Ken Vaughan's "drilled spacer's on a dowel" (scroll/search down to "racking") massively reduces the effort.

Great, simple design, allowing you to retain the other good features of the classic metal QR vise.

BugBear

Re: Hancock Shaker Village

#18

What a great bench...

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>Ken's bench is really well thought out. It may not suit everyone but there are some other great lessons in there. In particular I like the second face vise solution with threaded dog holes in the apron.

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