Combination planes

This is another.... *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>....good reason not to buy a #45. It has so many removable parts that most buyers/sellers don't even know if they are complete or not, and most aren't.


Stanley 45 parts list

I know how you feel

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Bob,

I know how you feel. I've had this discussion with Todd before. I don't mean to sound condescending, but I don't feel as strongly about it as I do now. There are things that need to be preserved. We could argue about which things (S#45 wouldn't be high on my list, just because it was mass produced and could be again).

Anymore, I think the Japanese are right. Its not the things you want to preserve. Things aren't particularly interesting anyway. We need to preserve the people.

In our case, we have old tools, but we don't know how they work. I'd rather know how and why than what (if that makes sense).

Every tool collector/preserver needs to visit the Mercer museum once if possible. There's an entire apothecary there. There's stuff everywhere. Its on the walls and ceilings, and nailed to every column. As much as I find the museum fascinating, so many of the whatsits contained therein are completely meaningless to me. Its just kitsch. I'm not proud to say that by the way. I'm exposing my complacent ignorance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Mercer museum is there. But I guess I don't find the artifacts interesting, enlightening, or helpful without the story that should go with them. Hopefully, that's what living historians like me are for; To bring relevance to the mundane of the past. Trouble is, we don't always know the relevance. So my advice is to put your passion into preserving that.

Despite all this, I still know how you feel.

Adam

Read David`s post again

Bob Hackett

>He said he was buying combination planes complete "with all the cutters,for $50".Your response as I read it was to break them up for more return.Correct me if I`m wrong.

While I will buy incomplete tools to get parts for myself or my friends I still don`t think breaking up a complete tool or a well cared for collection of tools into parts so you can see a better return is an ethical thing to do.Then again,not all of us are ethical individuals.

I`m not naive enough to think that anything in the world is sacred as long as some unscrupulous person is waiting in the wings to turn a buck on it.I`m just saying I had hoped that I wouldn`t see it promoted here.

If you can look at yourself in the mirror and feel good about breaking up a good Bedrock plane cause the parts will bring more than the useable tool there`s nothing I can say that will make a difference to you,just as there is nothing you can say to me that will convince me that it was the right or ethical thing to do.

I have absolutely no problem with parting out that same plane if one of the cheeks is broken through or some other non-repairable defect renders it unuseable as it is.

Roger,if you or I have misread David`s post and you are advocating breaking up an incomplete or unserviceable plane or planes then I am sorry if I`ve offended you.

For those of you who have nothing but the $$$ in mind and break up these complete and useable old gems that someone who is no longer with us cared for all those years,I`m not in the least bit sorry for what I believe and said.

Mainely,Bob-Old Tool Caretaker

Re: Read David`s post again

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Bob, I may be a slowhead, as Todd would say, but if someone breaks up a plane for parts, is he not helping to restore to working state several incomplete planes? Is this a bad thing?

Don - who only has a dozen or so old planes, and has never parted-out any.

I did. Maybe you should.

Roger Nixon

>You said to correct you if you were wrong. OK, you're wrong.

I didn't see the word "complete" in David's post. Nor did I say anything about breaking up complete Bed Rocks. I'm all in favor of restoring old tools and I'm in all in favor of preserving collector quality tools in their original condition.

What a great site, thank you, Alf.

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>

But Bill...

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I feel as though the typical buyer of a Stanley #45 was a carpenter, like SMT, who brought it along to his job site. Yes, a set of 50 woodies would have been better. But it is a COMBINATION plane.

Also, it has such a wonderful gizmosity factor (short of a #50).

There are so many #45 planes out there - were most of the buyers stupid?

Don - Who does not actually use his #45 (yet).

Re: Read David`s post again

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Bob,

I am concerned that some of the obvious emotion in your response to Roger is directed at me as well. I used a word, "absurd," that has multiple meanings, and connotations, and that you perhaps misinterpreted. I did not mean to imply that your feelings, or your goals in tool or skill preservation, or your sense of ethical behavior on this issue are absurd. They are most decidedly not absurd.

My use of the word was intended only with respect to logical processes and formal proofs of statements, where the reductio ad absurdum method is a useful tool for examining the basis of our arguments. What I meant was only that the form of your argument perhaps had falacies that left it open to questions as to its validity.

I apologize if I upset or offended you in any way. Preservation of tools, skills, and evidence of important changes in the way we think about the world are of critical importance in guiding future decisions.

This discussion brings up a new (to me, at least) thought: Many important historical events, and decisions, have been lost to us. Could we perhaps infer some of the relative importance of the different uses of these tools by analyzing the current market for parts of these planes? Some functions were clearly more important, or at least more often used, than others. Some of these functions required parts and accessories that were detachable, and therefore could go missing. Today's collector desires all the parts, and that part of the market should therefore drive up the prices of parts that were more often misplaced, or never even purchased, by the original user. Today's users would most likely have uses for the parts that remain attached to the planes, and therefore should not skew the prices of rare but less useful, parts.

An example that might illustrate this line of thought is the astronomical price and exceeding rarity of the special hollow and round

Re: But Bill...

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>No, they were not stupid, and neither was Stanley. But their needs were not the same as the needs of the typical participant in this forum. And the relative prices of the tools available to them was in no way equivalent to the prices of the tools available to us. In general, neither then nor now, would one go out onto a job site to build fine furniture, nor would one carry a half set of York pitch hollows and rounds and various other esoteric molding planes out into the mud and rain, and up into scaffolding, and perhaps into the clutches of one of the crew. If I needed one or more of the functions of one or the other down on the docks, you can be sure I would take my #45 with me, and leave the woodies in the shop.

Also, it is a lot easier to tie a lanyard to a #45 and to my belt, to insure it doesn't end up in Davey Jones' Locker when Old Fumblefingers, here, loses his concentration some while after emptying the antique Thermos�. Although the #45 is a type 1, and I know something about the previous craftsman who used it, these few simple precautions should reasonably insure that my son will continue to use it after I'm done with it. I do not, however, hold out any hope of figuring out where Albert obtained his set of tools, most of which were forged fifty or more years before he last used them.

Re: Combination planes

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>it certainly cuts profiles my Stanleys cannot

How/why is that?

I stand corrected

Bob Hackett

>You are absolutely right about the word "complete" not being in that post.I must have assumed that they were complete when he mentioned they had all the cutters.

Roger,please accept my appology.I was definately wrong.I see now we have much the same values on this subject.Thanks for being so patient with me.

Sir William,as you can see it doesn`t take much to get my blood up when speaking about parting things out or what I see as abuse of history in the form of old tools.I tend to look at these tools not as lumps of iron but as a representation of the craftsmen who held and worked with them.This may explain why NIB tools hold little excitement for me while better quality craftsman made or modified tools always draw me in.

When folks start talking about taking apart perfectly good old tools and selling off the pieces it just seems to me as though they might just as well take the craftsman who owned them apart and sell off an arm here or an eye there.You lose the particular wear marks and sweat marks that put together tell the whole story of how and possibly why that individual craftsman approached the work that he made his living by.

It always has and will continue to depress me whenever I see a fine old toolchest that tells the life history of a journeyman in any trade being sold off a piece at a time till nothing is left but the handmade chest waiting for some antique collector to haul it south so it can become yet another coffee or end table,probably never to be opened again.It`s the same feeling I get when I see those wood planes,etc drilled thru and screwed to the walls of the latest food joint in the area.

I do what I can with what little I have in my pocket to save as much of the old iron as I can and pass it on.I`m always happy to hear that others are trying to do the same where they live.Paul Dzioba and I talked about this when he was here.I knew exactly what he meant when he said"When that (fill in the blank) for a dollar or two sits there long enough to start rusting I pick it up and take it home.I don`t need it but I can`t let it just sit there and go to rust.I`d rather give it away than see that happen."

Fine old steel,fine old tools,fine old craftsmen.They all deserve as much respect as we can muster,regardless of cost.

Anyone have a use for this soapbox?I believe I`m done with it now.

Mainely,Bob

Re: I stand corrected

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>One old combination plane doesn't necessarily provide a lot of valuable history, but I wholeheartedly agree with you that parting out the contents of an intact tool chest (put together by a craftsman, not by a later collector) is shameful.

BTW, I am the proud and grateful recipient of a couple of Paul's "rust rescues".

It's OK

Roger Nixon

>No problems, Bob. I often get kinda cross too when I believe old tools are not getting the treatment they deserve.

The reason it doesn't bother me to part out a #45 is that I know why people are looking for those parts. They have a #45 that is important to them and they want to make it complete rather than just buy a different one.

Another rant...

Cameron

>Tools that have a "known" history - like those belonging to your father, grandfather, family friend or the cabinetmaker down the street who had a business for 50 years (or whatever) - are certainly more "important" than just picking up a mass produced tool at an antique store or market where the history of it is much less known. I have no real trouble with breaking up or utilizing plane parts from Stanleys, for instance, as these were made in such huge numbers that the direct line between the inventer/creator is so far removed that all is left is just a useful hunk of metal and wood. To me Stanleys and many of the other Stanley type planes kinda have no real "soul" to speak of - save for maybe the tote/handle which, in a way, I feel kinda holds an "imprint" of the person who may have owned it before it reached me.

Some of the smaller plane manufacturers though hold more of an interest to me - makers of planes such as Foster, Hahn, Popping, Steers etc. These were much smaller operations and the line between dreamer, creator and manufacturer is much more direct. You kinda feel that most of the planes made by these guys actually passed through their hands at one stage or another and, if that is the case, it's quite an awe inspiring thing to imagine. They knew everything about the plane from the ground up and the whole process of plane making was very much life and death for them. They weren't just "the guy in the machine shop who turned screw number seven" or "the guy who stamped out the lateral adjusters" if you know what I mean?

This is one reason why a lot of the old wooden planes hold an interest to me. If you look closely enough you might see the chisel marks where the plane has been "bedded down" or scribe marks showing where the angles should be etc. Sure, they're still mass produced essentually, but that "direct line" I keep mentioning is much easier to see than on all but the very earliest Bailey planes (or other early examples by other makers). Infill planes also hold that fascination for me as almost every one of them had at least some hand work involved in their making.

And I've not even begun to talk about the craftsmen who used these planes once they were made. With many of the planes I've used and have worked with I do get the feeling sometimes that the spirits of the previous owners are looking over my shoulder and making sure I do things correctly. I just tend not to get those feelings when I'm using my Stanleys, that's all. That's me though and I realize that things may be very different for someone else.

I have tools that my great grandfather made, tools that a great uncle made, tools that my grandfather made, and tools that my father made. They made quite a few of them! Hand wrought vises from 3/4" thick steel, center finders, wooden squares, hand planes, cast gunmetal trammel points, wrought iron metal guillotines, chisels, pipe benders, clamps, dividers, spokeshaves and other tools. Obviously these have all become very important to me as they all go together to form part of my own history as well as being a part of theirs. I would never even consider parting with any of these tools, of course. eBay and flea market Stanleys though I have no such reservations with.

Well stated, Cameron.

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>And when are we going to see more Cameron planes, hmmm ?

Re: Well stated, Cameron.

Cameron

>I might see if I've got some photographs kicking around here that I can post up. Usually there's not been enough time for photos in the past but we're now in the age of good quality digital cameras and things have gotten a lot easier in that regard.