Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Sean Evoy

>Randy,

Given that your kids are going to grow, I suspect that you'd be better off building the bench for the older child and making a good platform for the younger one to stand on.

The rules for my nephews in my shop are pretty basic and the same I grew up with. You earn your tool privileges. The older of the two (13) was pretty responsible with the hand tools I gave him to try so I offered him a chance to try out some power tools, but he declined. The younger (9) was itching to go (and is really quite good with a block plane), but he isn't quite as careful yet, so I limited him to the drill press.

In my mind, the key is how ready are they to listen to, and follow, my safety instructions. When I notice one "zoning out" when I talk about how to use a tool safely, I just steer them to a low-speed alternative.

It bothers me that there are no shop programmes in school anymore. I think kids can get a lot out of doing basic projects. I know that I get a bit stressed having them in my shop because I have to keep an eye on what they are doing, but I think they enjoy it when they come to visit. I have to come up with a real project for their next visit, so if you have any suggestions, I'd appreciate it.

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Dan Moening in Sacramento

>Randy,

You're doing a great thing there!

As to a bench (I wish I had room for my kids!) I stick with the dimensions for your 9yo. 6yos grow like weeds; and the 6yo isn't likely to be planning just yet. Mostly they will be hammering, drilling, driving screws, general fitting type activities...right?

For my 9yo daughter and 6yo son I simply place them on a stool over my bench. All handtool usage...my son has had his own toolbox for 3 years...each year or so I add another tool (screwdrivers, pliers, hammer, wood scraps, nails, screws, etc). I'm not comfortable with chisels yet....though I'm planing on getting him a cubscout pocket knife in the very near future.

Enjoy the process!

Dan.

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Sean Evoy

>Sorry Randy,

I didn't quite complete my answer. I think a basndsaw & drill press is about as far as I would go with a 9-year old. I didn't get to use a router or jig-saw until I was 12. Part of my concern would be how heavy the tools are and what a loss of control might mean.

In terms of hand tools, I let both my nephews use my very sharp utility chisels, planes, and a L-V plywood pull-saw. To date, the only injury has been a cut finger from a card scraper. A #3, a L-A smoother, or a block plane might be the way to go in terms of planes, again due to the weight.

Re: Junior Projects

Randy Todd in Dallas GA

>Sean,

Our next two projects will be the clocks and a baseball rack. For the clocks, there must be a hole to accept the movement, but past that the boys can do whatever they like. I'm going to let them start with a pile of different woods and a notepad to generate some ideas.

The baseball rack is a cool and easy project. If you haven't seen one, there is a plaque shaped to suit your tastes 6-8" wide and 12" or so tall. A hanger at the top for attaching to the wall and a peg at the top and bottom to hang glove and cap, and a platform projecting from the plaque with a round hole for a ball and a key slot cut in to slide the bat in and allow it to hang. It can all be done with a jig/scroll/bandsaw, screws, sandpaper and finish. Modest or as fancy as you like. I did one at around age 9. Another cool idea for budding WW'ers, especially if you have a group is the kits Home Depot uses for their free workshops. Our local HD donated a pile of these kits to our CubScout dens. Bird houses, cars, chimes, you name it. 1/2 hour type projects with nothing more than glue, a hammer, and maybe a screwdriver required.

Then again, my boys enjoy the scrap pile and a handful of nails and screws. Johnathan recently completed a pinball machine with nails for pins, working flippers and a plexiglass cover. His design and my help with dimensioning cuts on the tablesaw. The completed project held his attention for maybe 10 minutes, but the process was where the real value came in.

Thanks for the insights.

Randy in Dallas GA

Re: Tools

Randy Todd in Dallas GA

>I overlooked the block planes. They will be a child size fit and require less strength for light cuts. I worry a lot about chisels due to the danger of a serious and uncontrolled cut. I've managed to slice myself with a handplane, but only through gross negligence, and at least the cut was clean and limited in depth to the projection of the blade beneath the sole.

Be careful with the drill press. We had a mechanic break an arm in several places and nearly lose it to a drill press. Got tangled up and drawn in to a machine shop class machine that just wouldn't slow down for a little flesh and bone. I've had a much greater respect ever since. Even the low hp models have a decent amount of inertia if you cross them. I think you have it right going one tool at a time as the kids demonstrate the appropriate level of care and respect. I hate learning lessons the hard way and like every parent, I want to spare my kids as many of those lessons as possible.

Thanks again,

Randy

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Randy Todd in Dallas GA

>Dan,

Kids are great!

Hey on the pocket knife, I think my approach was wrong with Johnathan's first knife. I dulled his first knife a bit to avoid cuts. In the process I made the tool less dangerous and less useful. My intent was to make it less likely that he would get a serious cut, but I think I may have taught the wrong lesson by allowing him to get away with a bit of carelessness with respect to the edge. Perhaps I should have left the edge intact and let that first minor cut (tell me that any of you didn't learn about knives the hard way) teach him respect that isn't as easily forgotten? With supervision I should have been able to prevent a serious injury. . .

Just a thought for your consideration.

Thanks for the insight on the bench and tools.

Randy

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Dan Moening in Sacramento

>[i]tell me that any of you didn't learn about knives the hard way[/i]

Nope, can't do that ;-)

Both of my kids have been around any number of very dangerous things...both in the kitchen and shop. And as such have a healthy respect for these things. They have been using my chefs knives (under supervision, of course) for a couple years now.

I do have an ulterior motive for teaching them how to cook :~)

Dan.

Excellent idea!

Dan Moening in Sacramento

>A block plane is an excellent suggestion as a next tool...

I just have to find one that I'm willing to give up :-)

Dan.

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Phil Gaudio

>Here is a bench I built for my son a few years ago. I used the small Record hobby vise (appears to still be available at Lee Valley), attached maple face, and drilled 3/4" hole in it for the Veritas bench pups (you can see them in the picture). This has worked out great.

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

paul womack

>The chisels are shaving sharp though? ?

There's certainly no point giving them a blunt chisel. Either sharp or not at all, surely?

BugBear

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

paul womack

>mini bench

OLDTOOLS discussion #1

OLDTOOLS discussion #2

BugBear

My advice

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>My kids are still pretty much playing with scraps. My friend Gene has a lot more experience woodworking with kids. He works with 20 kids at a time in the joinery at Pennsbury Manor. He would say you should do really really simple stuff.

I'd build a low bench. Kids don't mind bending over, their backs don't ache, they are made of rubber anyway. Seriously, the low bench will allow them to get more of their body weight over the tools and that will help them.

By heavens, don't dare give them chisels!

1) they could hurt themselves

2) they're not going to have fun with you freaking out about their chisels

3) one slip and the kid has a bad experience, a bad memory and for what?

I'd forget planes too. They don't care about planes. When kids visit Pennsbury's joinery, we let them try edge planing- its much easier for them, they get dramatic results etc.

I'd stick with general carpentry skills, hand saws, clamps, hammer and nails, brace and bit or gimlets (you can get nice wire gimlets from LV) and that sort of thing.

As for bench vises, my advice would be to make a french bench with a crochet instead of a face vise, a bird's mouth instead of a planing stop and a couple light hand screws that won't pinch them. (Chances are, you'll fall in love wityh that simple and effective bench). If you make your own hand screws like I do, You could cross drill the handles for a tee handle that would give them a little more purchase.

As for projects, chances are these guys won't be able to saw straight, so making any sort of assembly will be tough. They could make something with pegs or dowels, like a towel rack. Joinery should be real real simple to get right. No need to frustrate them. I'd also concentrate on completing a project. You build it, then paint it, then give it to your mom. I think that's how it works.

Adam

Platforms Instead

David Linnabary

>Put em right up there at the big bench, just build a nice big platform of 3/4" plywood so they can be up where they need to be heigth wise. The platform will go right over to the scroll saw, the band saw, etc. In my shop the kids started at about age 3 or 4 standing on those square steel stools that you probably remember from high school chemistry lab. Once they got a little older I made the platforms.

After all, how much work can you really get done when your kids are in the shop doing a project? Heck its more fun watching them anyway. I just don't tempt myself by trying to work and keep an eye on them at the same time.

Oh and just trim an inch or two off that box platform as the kids hit their growth spurts.

Re: Junior Projects

Sean Evoy

>Randy,

Thanks for the greatt suggestion! I think the baseball idea could be adapted to street hockey pretty easily, so it would be a good fit here. Funny you should mention the scrap pile; I'm stuck using a "coaster" that came from a square cut-off and some clever chisel work from the 9-year old. Too bad I didn't show him how to test for square first :-)

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

David Linnabary

>My 14 year old had a semester of shop last year and he was top dog on the safety exam that preceeded using any equipment in class. It was a high pass fail threshold and many students took it twice or three times before they could start working their projects.

I had him teach me the same methods he learned at home in our shop, it was fun to put him in the position of explaining the hows and whys. I did learn some things that I've taken to habbit. Now he does the same for his cousins and any friends who come to the shop.

Even still when there are guests working in the shop, I go from working on my projects to strictly observing.

David

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

David Linnabary

>A neighbor friend of mine had an Amish family watching her kids for a while. She was very surprised one day when she picked them up and they were standing on a bench at the sink pealing apples, even the 5 year old. I think the Amish mother ask her, "How do you expect your kids to learn if you don't let them do?" :)

My philosopy is that if a child is curious, I put the tool right in their hands and we talk about it and discover how it works and how it can injure someone. I take as much time as they want. They know that if they ask, I'll stop and let them experience things, that way they aren't tempted to sneak to look at something. So far its worked quite well.

David

Re: Thanks & funny story

Randy Todd in Dallas GA

>Thanks for all the great ideas and links. I'm going to have to be careful about what tools I give to the 5 year old. He can be possessive, as evidenced by the last time someone took one of HIS tools.

Trying to get out of the HD store, the then 8 year old has a set of sockets from the clearance table, and the then 4 year old is jealous. 4 YO selects a spool of flourescent yellow carpenter's string for his prize. Fast forward several days. First cousin Adrian is over puttering around the shop with me and my father, and sees Ethan playing with the string and tangling it up a bit. Ever helpful, cousin Adrian takes the string away from 4 year old Ethan and puts it out of reach. Roughtly 30 seconds elapse and Adrian rounds the corner to find Ethan cutting the leads from the Fluke test meter with a pair of side cutters. Asking why, Adrian is told that since he took away Ethan's string (a cosmin injustice) Ethan old is getting even by cutting Adrian's meter wires. Well, this is all very funny until my Dad returns. You see the meter belonged to him. Moral of the story, never leave a kid alone for a minute, he has been watching you use those hand tools. Second moral of the story, never cross my four year old without a well thought out damage control plan.

Thanks to all for the good suggestions.

Randy in Dallas GA

Re: Tools

Sean Evoy

>Yikes. I never really thought about that aspect of the DP (mine is pretty anemic but clearly that's no protection against getting hurt). I'll add the "no lose clothing or bling-bling" to my list of safety items for that tool, too. Like you, I'm experimenting with what is safe and what isn't.

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I have had my nephew in the shop fro about 4 years now he is 11 just turned a couple weeks ago. I would start them with simple tools that are pretty safe. He likes the orental pull saws the best it is easier for him to saw straight and handle. I think kids do better with them small block planes are also good they straighten up crooked saw lines and make shavings lots of them they can see work being done even if it isn't. egg beaters but watch out for skin in the gears they like to use them and it helps to predrill nail holes in wood. I wouldn't give them a chisel as they don't have the hand eye cordination that is required and will end up with a cut. look at my left hand for proof 3 nasty cuts in two years making soap box durby cars at about that age. Keep the project simple at first and let them wook up to more complicated ones. somthing they can build in a few hours and and paint or finish in a couple more. Jig saws are goo for you older child my nephew uses mine all the time. Most inportant HAVE FUN as long as mom like it they will be happy they made here somthing even if it looks less than you want.

Re: Platforms Instead

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>I agree with the platform idea. I have a 3/4" plywood one under my bench for my grandson Aaron. They take almost no time to build and when the kids aren't around you'd be surprised how handy they can be around the shop for vertically challenged adults too. Even though Aaron is rapidly reaching a size where he won't need it, I still might occasionally.

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>LV has some new vises on their website. As for the chisel's I have a 2 hands on the tool approach to start and show them where to stand and never work the chisel towards themself's. Personally a little project like carving a spoon. Cut the blank out with a coping saw some spoke shave work and gouge to cut the hollow out. As for power tools I'd avoid it till they are tall enough to safely stand at them I don't like the idea of using stools for power tools.

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Randy, I also think simple hand tools are all they need(hammer,screwdrivers,hand drill,hand saw and maybe a few shaves)Maybe a block plane.My grandson was working on my bench at 8. I'd let the little guy use a platform til he grows.As to vises,any of those cheap vises you add wooden jaws to will make them happy.I guarantee they'll cut into them.I think a handmade leg vise is a great idea.If you can get a screw and nut the rest is easy.---Jack

Re: Child Size Workbench Questions (long)

Alan Hamilton

>Randy,

I'm very envious--of both you and your children.

Tools , benches and all the rest are nice, but not necessary for what you're really making; memories, after all, are best made with other things.

Alan

Make an adjustable height bench.

John K in Hastings, MN

>A couple ways to do this.

-If against a wall, get some heavy duty shelf supports and the triangular shelf supports. Put one every stud. This will allow you to adjust in ~1" increments as they grow.

- Use a lower box and upper beam, tight fitting, with a carriage bolt through. Drill holes as needed.

- Build a bench height high enough to use for a few years, then build a low platform to stand on until then.

Get them their own tools, not cheapie or dull- these are more dangerous. A brace and bit set is fine. Plenty of pine underneath to make projects from.

John