Plane sole frustration

Re: Plane sole frustration

Rossmoor Galoot

>I have had good luck with 120 grit drywall sanding screen placed right on top of sandpaper mounted on glass to hold it in place. This is a very agressive approach. The screen works better I believe because the metal falls in between the voids in the screen. A pack of 50 is under $10 bucks at the local home center. You can use both sides and just put a new piece on when the old one stops removing metal. Good luck!

Look here... *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>......and all will become clear


Furbishing an Anant No 4

Pretty unusual

WoodburnBob

>...to work on a sole for 2 months and come up with it being concave.

It means perhaps two things to me: The You're Getting Nowhere Theory (the sole started out concave and you haven't removed much material) or The You're Getting Somewhere You Didn't Expect Theory (what you believe to be a flat piece of glass, isn't).

You don't mention what grit size was used and how many estimated hours of back and forth were expended over the 2 months. For that matter, we don't know how much material you're trying to remove. I guess the simplest would be to see how many thicknesses of typing paper strips are captured under the sole. That is, use typing paper strips as a feeler gage. They are something on the order of 0.0015. If you can pull one strip through under the sole when the plane is setting on a flat surface, I think that is a lot of metal to try to remove using abrasive rubbing. If you are using 100 or 200 grit paper, I can image that you may not have gotten anywhere even working out on the plane for hours and hours.

Your plate glass will to some extent conform to what you have it resting on. If that base is not flat, pushing down on the glass when you rub will only make matters worse. If you doubt this, either get or borrow a dial test indicator. Zero it in the middle of the glass strip you have. Put your finger or fist on the plate and push down a little. I bet you see the indicator jump many thousandths of an inch. To the extent that your plane is more rigid than the 3X24 glass, your efforts may simply be making your flexible "glass lap" surface conform to the less flexibe cast iron surface you are trying to "lap" flat.

Paul Womack's entreaties on using a hand file and a reference surface are where you need to look next.

I do wish you'd tell us more details on the size of the gap and your technique.

Best wishes

Re: Plane sole frustration

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Do you ever let the heel or toe of the plane extend off of the abrasive surface?

If you let the ends of the plane extend past the abrasive you are inadvertently sanding the middle of the plane more than the ends.

Just a theory

Re: Plane sole frustration

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Gerry

You really should not be having this much trouble. I recently flattened the sole of a Stanley #62 jack (same size as a #5) in a couple of hours. This included going from 60 grit through to 360 grit. This plane had a pronounced "banana" bend when I got it.

It made a difference that my lapping table (picture below) has a glass plate 1 m (39") long. This really reduced the amount of time.

The other factor is technique. Basically carefull attention to pushing down rather than pushing forward.

A last point. The Anant plane may really not be worth the effort when vintage Stanley planes are available so cheaply.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Pretty unusual

Gerry Doll

>I started with 120 grit and worked up to 220.

Removed quit a bit of metal.

When checked with a new Woodcraft straight edge (I am assuming the straightedge is milled straight. Which leads to another question.... How do you check the accuracy of a straightedge?) directly across the middle and on both diaganol axis , a visible gap appears at both the heel and toe. Did not try a feeler gauge as the gap was quite visible with a flash light from behind. Then back to the plate glass and 120. Same result over a 2 month period. Finally got the impression I was going to grind the sole to nothing and still end up concave.

Wondering what the hell I was doing wrong, ordered an LV lapping kit. Placed lapping plate on work bench, started at 90 grit with some light oil. Plane fits diagonally on plate, 14" plane, 11" plate). Tried to work the center a lit more firmly than the ends. Same result.

Re: Look here...

Gerry Doll

>Thanks, but how do you take a belt snader to a plane sole and not make a hash out of it??

Re: Plane sole frustration

Gerry Doll

>mistyped earlier, the ends sit higher. ie plane rests on its mouth with the heel and toe off the surface.

Oh...now I see

WoodburnBob

>Your original description was that the sole was concave. I just saw your post that you'd gotten the description wrong and instead the sole is convex. "Lapping" a sole convex, like you did, is a very common outcome for many of us using the technique you use. One intends flat and instead gets convex. This is actually the way it should turn out for most people using that technique. You are not necessarily doing anything wrong. You are doing what is advised my many experts. It's just that, well, sometimes expert advice only works for experts. Some of us think that once you get a little convexity, it is basically impossible to avoid adding a little more with each stroke...unless you can control how level the plane is (within say 0.0001") with each stroke. For fun some evening you might veer off to some of the lens grinding sites on the WWW.

You said, "I am assuming the straightedge is milled straight."

I was in Woodcraft once and checked some of their straightedges because I wanted to use one to check the sole of a new Bailey #7 they had. The straight edges aren't. Take two and lay the edge of one on the edge of the other. Hold them up to the light. Swap edges. Turn one 180 degrees. You shouldn't see any light but you do. This is one difference between a woodworking kind of straightedge and something expensive like a Starrett.

You said, "Finally got the impression I was going to grind the sole to nothing and still end up concave." You mean "convex"?! Correct?

So, you're frustrated. No wonder. But don't give up. You'll learn several things that are extremely important if you stick with this.

Gerry, you started with a 14" jack plane. We don't know whether the sole was originally flat, concave or convex. But now it is convex, at least on the ends. That may not matter at all unless you are some sort of increadible perfectionist, in which case I still think you are going to learn something in the end.

The main thing the convex ends have done has been to shorten the effect length of the sole. It may be that the plane now has an effect length of 6". It may make it more difficult to get a long edge straight but it won't otherwise prevent the plane from performing otherwise to it's innate potential. What's the longest effective length of sole (that includes the mouth) that is flat by you method of measuring right now?

How are you doing with sharpening the iron and tuning the plane other than the sole issue. What is the outcome when you put it to wood at this point? Is it possible that you had problems in performance when you took it out of the box, and assumed...like with the Woodcraft straightedge...the problem was the sole? I wonder if were lured into a wild goose chase.

Re: Plane sole frustration

Rossmoor Galoot

>That's a horse of a different color! How far in does the convexity occur? On a jack plane, the sole doesn't have to be completely flat! I have users that are higher on both the heel and the toe which make beautiful shavings. Basically, the sole has to have a large enough flat base defined by edges of the sole, 1" around the throat area and in front and back of the throat area that it will remain flat while you are planing. That's my experience anyway!

Re: Look here... *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Gerry,

I would only recommend this as a last resort. I've only done this once on a dogmeat 608 (big*ss jointer plane)that had terrible pitting on the sole. You need a reference like engineers blue. I clamped the belt sander upside down in a vice and took down the high spots until I could lap it by conventional means.

The not so politically correct version is this. India is not that well known for producing quality tools and your Anant plane is no exception. This thing wouldn't even be a match for the lowliest of planes like a Shelton and would best be used to smash spiders and hit nails with. Even if you manage to get your anant plane tuned up, the cutting iron is pretty lousy.

Save yourself the aggravation and toss this junker in the trash. Get yourself a nice older plane in good to good+ condition, buy a nice woody by Steve Knight, or one of the excellent planes available fron LV or LN. Once you take your first shaving with a well tuned and adjusted quality plane, the only thing you'll use your electric jointer for is as a lapping table.

Regards

Jonathan - Registered Member of the SGFH


Look Here

Upside down perspective.

Gerry Doll

>Bob,

Sorry about the misunderstanding. Apparently I've spent so much time looking at this plane with the sole pointed up, that I'm referring to a convex as a concave from an upside down perspective.

Re: Sharpening and Honing

I started with Scary Sharp and recently graduated to Waterstones (200, 1000, 6000).

Lapped the iron flat with the LV kit (it was seriously out of flat!!), honed the bevel to 25. Filed the underside of the chip breaker smooth and polished the front with a fine emery cloth. Adjusted the frog as close as I could to the mouth. Actually managed to get lite and fluffy shavings from a $40.00 Anant plane.

Was just worried about the convexity. Was planning on using this as a jointer til I could afford to drop some more $ on a quality jointer.

Thanks for the help.

Where do you guys find this stuff!!!!!

Gerry Doll

>Jonathan,

Thank you. Where do you guys find this stuff? For a newbie, the options appear limited to the scrap iron sold at home improvement stores, or missing a mortgage payment for the quality LNs, Lvs, and the like. Aprreciate the assist.

Re: Where do you guys find this stuff!!!!!

Aaron Cunningham

>Gerry,

As a fellow newbie, I'm right there with you. I started lurking here about 6 months ago and felt the same way.

I'm now well on my way down the slippery slope. I've gone from a block plane and a #3 (both my grandfathers) and added a couple of #5s, a wooden jointer, a pair of spokeshaves, 4 block planes and a drawknife.

I'm not as hardcore as some of the people here, but here's what's worked for me. YMMV :)

1. Let people know you are a woodworker and interested in old tools. (Subtly, mind you. :) )

A coworker hooked me up with her father who was moving into a condo after retirement and needed to save space. No cost to me and I came out of it with a Gerstner tool chest, a drawknife, block plane, #5, and assorted other bits (In addition to a 1949 4" jointer and lathe)

2. Google for flea markets in your area. I went to a local one in the Seattle are and scrounged a Yankee screwdriver for $.50. (I spent a lot more getting drill points, but that's another story)

3. Start wandering through your local antique shops. I'm luck in that Snohomish (WA), just around the corner has an antique mall. I'm still learning, so I probably paid too much for my first batch but I got a decent #5 for $25 and another and a Disston handsaw for $23. Also got a Yankee screwdriver for $1.

4. Try the local thrift stores. Got another Disston for 4.35 (w tax)

5. Check the family. :) My dad is supposedly digging out a box of my grandfather's old tools that's been in storage for years. Who knows what hides in old attics? :)

As I'm sure other people will say, it's just about looking for the opportunities. Now that you're on the slippery slope, you'll start looking at things differently, I sure did. (These people around here are a bad influnce. WoodCentral made me do it. Really. :) )

Hope this was of some help.

Aaron

Look at what you've learned!

Rossmoor Galoot

>In your last post you said:

"Actually managed to get lite and fluffy shavings from a $40.00 Anant plane."

Congratulations. In the process you learned how to fettle a handplane completely and can now spot a good user by looking at it. Those are skills worth having! The slope gets much more slippery from here on out!

By the way, if you had started with an older Stanley the process would have been the same, just a tad shorter, so enjoy your Anant! I have a number of Anants and use them with pride. When the blade dulls you may want to invest in a good replacement from Hock, LN or Spehar. They'll hold an edge much longer!

You're okay then?

WoodburnBob

>I'm with Mr. Rossmoor Galoot (suppose it's his real name?)...you're doing fine. Sounds like you're happy with the shavings and action, and that you're mostly wondering how much you're going to loose out on with the curled sole front and back. I'd guess not much. I vote you pat yourself on the back for a job well done and move on. You've passed your initiation. Now, see if you can't joint a board to your satisfaction if that is the ultimate goal.

I did a lot of experimenting on jointing with a #7 and a #8 last winter. For me, the technique or method ultimately proved to trump the length of the plane. When I started I expected the length of the sole to take care of everything automatically. What an idiot. Once I started checking where I needed to do what (sighting and straightedges again), everything started falling in place. I'm not so sure a jack and a little devotion to method and consciousness wouldn't suffice for anything I have to do. Not saying much though I suppose.

Re: Plane sole frustration

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Say Gerry,

Tell me that while your attempting to flatten this sole that yu have the plane fully assembled as if you where using it to plane wood. dunno if you know this or not, and if you do please forgive me for insulting your intelligence, but the frog/blade/chipbreaker/lever cap assembly keeps the sole in tension. So if ' you'un has it out while lapping than put it back in later your looing at two different soles so to speak.

If as ou say your able to get any type of respectable shaving from this doorstop I'd say that you've done very well indeed. Hay, look on the bright side Gerry, you learned something in this process, and you didn't mess up a vintage tool. :~)

Welcome to The Island(of misfits) and to The Slope. It's all downhill from here bro.

Todd O.

Re: Plane sole frustration

Gerry Doll

>Todd,

Yes, I had the plane assembled and the iron backed off. Caught at least that much info going thru the posts on flattening. Now is there some way to keep this new addiction from drivingme into the poor house?

Re: Where do you guys find this stuff!!!!!

paul womack

>Where do you guys find this stuff?

The short answer is "We look. Hard. Often."

It's a time vs money deal.

If you spend the time to learn about older tools, model numbers, brands and features to look out for, problems to avoid you'll be informed enough to...

Spend a lot of time at yard sales, flea markets and auctions buying up the bargains, and then...

Spend more time cleaning and tuning.

OTOH, if you have more money than time, you can buy modern tools of known quality.

If you have neither money nor time, you're in trouble.

BugBear

Re: Plane sole frustration *LINK*

paul womack

>Now is there some way to keep this new addiction from drivingme into the poor house?

Yes - making your own tools. Although the expenditure on metal wokring tool to make wood working tools makes the economics tricky.

IIRC Steve Knight started making his own planes because he couldn't afford new ones!

BTW, I've attached a link to my flattening page that people were kind enough to mention.

BugBear


file it away

Re: Plane sole frustration

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Now is there some way to keep this new addiction from drivingme into the poor house?

Yes and No.

when I first "discovered" planes I bought everything I could find and afford. Didn't know diddly about different types or makers. Had I known then what I know now I'd only of bought Millers Falls and left the Stanleys. Just my personal belief that the Millers Falls are better made, and the reson for that beig that MF's are copies of Stanleys, so in order to compete in a Stanley controlled market they had to make them better than Stanley did.

You'll probably discover that certain tools really appeal to you. I like chisels, especially big 'uns, sharpening stones, saws, homemade tools, block planes, and braces and their assorted bits. I'm trying to hold it there but who knows what'll come along next. Whatever you seem to have a natural appeal to, educate yourself on so that you don't spend $50 for a $5 tool.

On second thought...No. ;~)

Todd O.

Re: Plane sole frustration

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>...competing in a Stanley controlled market..."

What a concept! LN, LV, Cliffton, Shepherd, Anant, Buck Brothers, and all the other modern makers are still competing in a Stanley controlled market, even though Stanley is no longer really in the market themselves. This is all thanks to SGFHs like this one.