diamond users, important information

Re: diamond users, important information

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, Florida

>How much do your plates cost? Since you used (if I read your message correctly) only two grits, one more plate would get rid of the problem of cleaning the plates.

Re: diamond users, important information

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>The first thought that comes to mind is high pressure water as to how practical depends on wether or not one of you has a high pressure washer.

Re: diamond users, important information

joel

>try some water soluable diamond paste. I can't say I have looked through a microscope to see if I get it all clean but it cleans up great and quickly with water.

Re: diamond users, important information

Robin Frierson

>I use a citrus based cleaner, the kind that dissolves grease, is a spray bottle. I use diamond powder on MDF lubricated with vasoline and a little 3in 1 oil. Between grits I hit the iron with the citrus spray and wash it off under running water and wipe with paper towel. I work at a sink so its pretty easy to clean. I dont have a microscope but do still occassionally get rouge scratches in the finer grits. I just do the backs so its not coming from a jig.

I agree, the biggest challenge facing diamond users is contamination. I like Joel's idea of water based products, perhaps they would clean esier. But I am wondering if the diamonds actually embed into the tool steel? I was thinking of trying KY jelley on the MDF but was afraid the water based product would cause the substrate to swell. But that wouldnt be a problem with cast iron. Keep up the good work Bill.

Re: diamond users, important information

Tony Z.

>Bill,

Is this an issue of diamond particles "lodged" in the scratches? If so, then the issue is more of a method to dislodge the particles and not simply cleaning the spent paste from the chisel or the iron plate.

Tony Z.

Re: diamond users, important information

matt williams

>Was the diamond embedded in the tool steel or the plate. As I read it it was in the tool.

Where is the most affordable place to find a cast steel plate?

After an hour of sharpening last night I would love to find a faster way!

Thanks!

Re: diamond users, important information

Tim of San Leandro

>I guess that explains why my 50,000 mesh plate seems to be more like a 8,000 mesh plate after using 20 or so times..... : (.

I'm thinking I might just have to bite the bullet and get shaptons.... : - |

Tim

grits are stuck in the tool scratches

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>

correct statement

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>the 15 micron diamond could be easily seen at 80X lodged in the scratches left in the tool steel. I would not use the word embedded to describe their state as they were easily dislodged with a probe and most were dislodged by washing/brushing.

I am quite confident that some sort of physical means will be required to dislodge them, not simply a better detergent.

We hope to test ultrasonic and would have already had I not for got and sharptened the test piece with 1 micron, which removes the 15 micron ledged particles.

cast iron

Robin Frierson

>"Where is the most affordable place to find a cast steel plate?"

I have just used an old plane bottom, a ragged #5, clamped in the face vice. The problem I have had with cast iron is the diamonds just seems to slid around on the cast iron and eventually go off the edge, while with the MDF it catches in the substrate.

I do have a spare extra large cast iron bandsaw table that if cut up would make some nice cast iron plates. But how to cut it up? I am not sure if Bill uses the ones with grooves or just a flat piece of cast iron. Some of the machinest plates were very expensive.

Re: diamond users, important information

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I think that what we found is a reasonable source for the "rogue" scratches that show up in the finer grits.

Re: correct statement

steve knight

>wire wheel on a grinder or dremel?

How about this?

Robin Frierson

>What if you took the iron and ran it over a convential waterstone stone of the same grit size, I wonder if that would dislodge the diamonds. Or even sandpaper of the same grit size.

And since you got the microscope, you may want to check and see if convential abrasives also lodge in the scratches. Maybe its a problem with all abrasives?

Re: diamond users, important information

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Bill,

Here's a shot in the dark. What if each diamond lap had its own leather strop. Just a hard leather strop mounted on wood. Maybe a little honing oil or mineral spirits to give it some tack, I don't know what would be best. And wipe off the lapped blade on its strop before going to the next grit.

My guess is that this would remove maybe 90% of what is now being carried over, but there would still be some residual. However, I mention it because it is quick to do.

The whole problem seems to be to find a 'wiping medium' that will sorta 'float' the diamond out of the blade scratches, so that it will effectively wipe off.

2 cents. With change. Wiley

Iron flat stock, circles, etc... *LINK*

David Barnett

>From MSC. For example a 1/4" thick 4" x 24" piece will run you about 60 dollars (will make a couple or three laps). You'll have to clean them up and scrap them flat, but that's easy enough. I have several 6" diameter x 1" thick circles I use this way. They make nice weights, too.


MSC cast iron raw stock

Re: correct statement

Tony Z.

>Bill,

Is it possible that the particles are actually "trapped" in scratches left by the 80 grit ruby wheel and not the diamond paste?

Do you have any means of measuring the width and depth of the scratches to determine what may have made the scratches?

Tony Z.

Re: diamond users, important information

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Hi Bill,

Another outstanding report.

I suspect the problem you have encountered is common to all free lapping abrasives. I'm sure the rogue scratches have been frequently encountered by many, but usually not understood because most have not examined their blades under magnification.

It is much less of a problem with abrasives that are held in a binder, and which generally round or frature to a smaller size before any detachment occurs from the binder. Interesting, the exception is often new diamond coated plates where coarse rogue scratches (likely from poorly adhered diamonds on the surface, which break free intact) have indeed been a minor problem, I suspect for much the same reason you have described. Ceramic binder waterstones are likely the least susceptible to these problems, with abrasive papers being much more susceptible, but improving with this respect after the first one or two uses (but also by that time starting to get "dull." Again, one of the reasons why I'm not quickly retiring my waterstones.

My guess is that most removal methods are going to over-complicate the sharpening process. Leather or wooden strops will sooner or later build up sufficient free particles that they will return some of their free particles back to the steel. Soft bristle brushes are apt to lack sufficient strength to remove the particles, and have the problem of storage and cleaning between use. Brass wire bristle brushes are apt to have more promise with intial removal, but one wonders if they won't quickly embed with the free abrasive particles. Perhaps something like a throw away plastic mesh pad (something like the White ScotchBright) might be effective.

Since you have found that the next finer diamond size has been quite effective in removing the coarser grits from the blades, what I would be most prone to do is just add an intermediary abrasive step between the ones you have established. This should result in removal of the rogue particles, but at the same time allow for very efficient removal of the prior scratch pattern. Of course you would eventually be widening the "grade" (size range) of your abrasive in each step because of the contamination, but this shouldn't be much of a problem with the intermediary steps. This would probably be what I'd try first.

In summary, I think you have only identified a problem that is common to free abrasives (be they lapping compounds or shed whole particles), and one way to deal with it will be to include intermediary steps in your sharpening process.

a clear conclusion. Could be a charging problem

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>the diamond particle is clearly stuck in its scratch track. the 80 grit scratches are gone in one stroke of the tool across the plate so they are not left to trap anything. We even saw cases where a scratch started and then the particle came loose from the plate and the scratch stopped at the lodged particle.

It is entirely possible that this problem is a result of improper plate charging. This plate (2 1/2 x 12") was charged with 0.1 mL of oil based paste and that was way too much. So we had a bunch of loose diamond "floating" in the grease about the cast iron surface. I am hoping that a gem polisher or metal finishing person will have some insight.

very good idea

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>

Re: diamond users, important information

Patrick Gibbons

>What about using play doh or soft rubber; something that is tacky or sticky and would accumulate the particles? How about a piece of tape?

Re: a clear conclusion. Could be a charging proble

Greg Sloop

>How about "dragging" it across some MDF as if you were sharpening it?

(The MDF being dry and uncharged with anything.)

As I envision it, it would think it would be...

Sharpen at 15m

Wipe/clean

Drag on MDF

Repeat wipe/clean process...

I'd think that would dislodge all the diamonds, or at least loosen them enough that the repeat wipe would take them away.

MDF is cheap and a couple of SQ feet would be enough to last a long time.

Am I missing something? (It seems too simple perhaps...)

Cheers,

Greg

Maybe it's time to try waxing, Bill. *LINK*

David Barnett

>You can try any wax that'd work for cire perdue, Bill. It usually comes pelletized in 1 lb bags from jewelry and dental suppliers. Kerr Pink Pearls is a good one. It's an injection wax that melts at 155F and goes straight to a highly liquid phase rather than progressing linearly through ever-softening stages of plasticity. This allows the wax (actually, a plastic) to capture the finest detail in casting and should pick up any stray grit. It's very grabby. Boil to remove and reuse, or in many cases, freezing will do the trick. I get it for about four dollars a pound in bulk. FDJ will sell you just one pound if you want to try it, but any dental lab should give you a couple handfuls of an equivalent injection wax if you tell them why you need it (which presumably isn't to clean up that bikini line).


FDJ - Kerr injection wax

Ultrasonics are a tried & true method...

David Barnett

>You might wish to look into an ultrasonic cleaner, Bill. Again, these can be had from jeweler and dental suppliers. I use a very small, inexpensive but very efficient model, but you'll need something larger. A new 100-watt model that has a 9 1/2" tank might set you back a bit, but used cleaners can be had quite reasonably on eBay and as trade-ins from dental and jewelry casting labs.

Mine easily removes lapping grit from my gravers and gems, as confirmed under my stereo microscope at appropriate magnification (I'd hate to live without either my ultrasonic cleaner or stereo zoom boom scope). Half & half water and Simple Green (the nearly odorless industrial Crystal Simple Green is nicer) really does the trick for decontaminating diamond boart from steel.

Let us know how it goes after removing the excess

Tim of San Leandro

>Bill,

Let us know how it goes after removing the excess diamonds from overcharging the plate.

Also....how is acrylic for a substrate with 15 micron diamond? I know you've reported acrylic works well with large diamonds but poorly with the polishing size diamonds.

Tim