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Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

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Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#1

Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

WoodburnBob

> Norris Bedding

Summary: I took the lever cap off a Norris A5 so I could do some work on the bed. I then confirmed the bearing points between the iron and the bed. I did this in the hope of having this A5 perform better...an endless process. I also found a hidden design feature I hadn't heard of before and am hoping someone will tell me about its history. Wait 'till you see this!

This little HTML production probably is not worth the bandwidth. But, for those who haven't ventured to remove a pin from an infill or fit blade and bed, it might be interesting. If nothing else it may give some of you second thoughts on the sensability of your yearnings for a Norris, the postwar A5 anyway. I think this particular A5 was always out of whack in many ways...in a word, this A5 is a lemon. I suspect it's been passed around for 50 odd years as an object of desire, indeed; but I doubt any romances were actually consummated.

Admittedly, it is probably possible to do the fixes described here without removing the lever cap, but what an arduous task that would be. And, you'd never really be able to confirm what you were doing, at least not easily. So that's why I removed the cap. The A5 I'm talking about is the same one I showed with the concave sole a few weeks back (see it here if you haven't).


To start I use a center punch to put a divot in the center of the pin before using a drill. This will keep the drill bit from wandering and making a mess. I only do this on one side.
Next a pilot hole goes in with a small bit, perhaps a 1/8"or so. Go down maybe 1/2" . I follow this up with a larger bit, staying away from the pin border. The purpose of this is to remove enough pin metal so that the circumference margin will collapse inward as I drive the pin with a punch and hammer.

If you skip the drilling, and simply start hammering away with the punch, you have to do the reverse of peening, in the process trying to push a huge amount of steel . If there is much of a countersink in the pin hole/side plate, this will be impossible.
At this point I've drilled my holes and given the pin about 3 moderate blows with the narrow pin punch you see here. The pin is now essentially free and is easy to push or tap all the way through and out. Total time: about 5 minutes, mostly changing drill bits, dropping them on the floor, picking them up, rubbing my back, sighing.

BTW, I did the drilling on a cheap tabletop drill press. The plane was hand held, the speed was the slowest. I've also done this with a hand held electric drill...but one must be more careful.
With the lever cap off there is access to everything. For those who haven't seen the fixing of the adjuster, here it is: two screws. If you left the lever cap intact, I don't know if there would be enough clearance to get the two screws out and pull the adjuster...if that's what you intent was. But who would want to go through that agony.

I would point out that the bed surface is rough. The varnish is orange-peeled as you see. More surprising to me is that the bed is left with saw marks. It was not planed or otherwise surfaced. Most of the other infills I've been into are smooth planed and flat.
Here I've simply dropped a 123 block flat onto the bed. It rocks pretty bad and dives into the front right corner with pressure. Hopefully you can see the relatively huge gap between the block and the bed on your left compared to no gap on your far right. Corresponding to this, before I started this operation I was able to shove a piece of stiff paper well up under the blade on the left side...even after the lever cap was cinched down tight!
Here's the 123 block resting on the bed.
Self-explanatory.
Let me explain this image. I've done no metal work on the bed up to and including this image. This was blued with the 123 block. I've already used a thin wide chisel inserted up through the mouth to remove the ledge of wood towering proud to the metal section of the bed. This was what caused the worst of the "unflatness" and diving. Before removing the ledge, the 123 block, or blade, was only barely touching the far left side of the metal bed.

As most of you know, the metal bed consists of the sole piece, and on top of that another piece of steel (the bevel of which here is finished with coarse and ragged end mill marks) attached to the sole piece by peened rivets. The bevels actually form an angle of something like 178 degrees, not 180 degrees. I presume this was a problem of sloppy fit and not purposeful design. If someone pipes up and says that's the way it's supposed to be, and that I've totally ruined an expensive artifact...I won't be all that surprised.

By this point I've done a fair amount of bluing, filing and fitting. Now I've switched over to spotting the sole with the Norris blade that came with the plane. I think the bearing marks between the blade and the metal bed are about the best I can expect from my efforts. Remember that the bevel of the iron ends a small distance up the bed so the bluing will never reach all the way to the mouth edge.


This is a bit closer view. Notice the disk-like structure on the inner side wall near the mouth. There's one on the other side. With the iron and lever cap in place these are concealed.

I suppose it's possible this is some sort of vestigial Victorian embellishment meant to frame and display a small cameo of your beloved on one side, and, say, your mother on the other.
In fact these are two protruding, domed, button-like swellings that narrow the width of the bed and restrict lateral movement of the blade. They are actually responsible for a snug side to side fit in this plane. Being dome-shaped, they presumably serve as fulcrums on either side of the blade and work in concert with the lateral component of the Norris adjuster...at least theoretically.

This may explain why I was previously having such a hell of a time getting anything done with the lateral adjuster.

At first I thought these were somehow forged or stamped into the side wall before assembly of the metal body. But I also wonder if they aren't actually rivets with very large heads set into a slightly counterbored hole.

Surely, someone must know the real historical facts on this hidden feature of A5 anatomy.

As a preliminary step to finishing up this stage in my neverending struggle, I reassembled the plane using the old lever cap pin, just tapping it in. I'm not convinced I won't be opening this up again before I'm finished, so I'll put off peening a new pin in until I'm sure I won't be back.

These are the first shavings. While thin, I'm not sure I'm completely satisfied with the results. There is still something wrong with the feel of it all.




Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#2

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

Charles

>Call me stupid, but I thought the point behind owning a Norris smoother was to not go through what you apparently did.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#3

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

Charles

>Sorry, didn't read all of your intro - plane was a lemon, in poor shape.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#4

Ah, another urban myth disintegrates.

WoodburnBob

>

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#5

Norris Side Buttons

Steve Elliott

>Another great post, Bob.

For the record, removing a Norris adjuster is possible and not too agonizing. It just requires an offset screwdriver of the right size. I've done it a couple of times, and prefer to leave the lever cap in place if possible.

The rounded buttons on the plane sides under the lever cap are present on some of the later pre-war rosewood-infilled planes, and on the post-war models. They're described in a good article available here. The relevant passage says, "Study of the inside of the mouth reveals two things, one the thickness of the sole can be seen and two the sides have the round raised buttons on which the iron rides to facilitate smooth lateral adjustment. On some models these buttons are not present but further inspection on these will reveal a nib on the sides higher up beneath the lever cap serving the same purpose." The buttons are also present on planes without adjusters, maybe just because it was easier to make all the plane bodies the same way, or maybe because they also help to keep the corner of the blade from catching the little step in the side of the mouth where the sole overhangs the sides.

I have a pre-war Norris 5 that has the same bedding problem you describe�when the blade is clamped down tight, a feeler gauge will slip up under it for about 3/8". I've been looking at low-profile scrapers to see if I can correct the problem without removing the lever cap, but may decide to use your method.

Thanks for taking the trouble to document and post your work. It's really helpful to me.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#6

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Bob as always Great Post. I thoroughtly enjoy all the indepth explnations and pictures. Thanks Jim

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#7

Re: Norris Side Buttons

WoodburnBob

>Thanks for the encouragement, Steve. I looked at that article on Murland's site just last week, but obviously didn't read it closely. I was following Google links trying to find information on something I've already forgotten.

I wondered then, and now, who the author was and why he wasn't cited by name. Was it Murland himself? I don't get why, if the apprentice was alive and talking in 2000, someone didn't go out and interogate him for a few weeks on video. Jeez. Last surviving guy who actually worked in the factory. What a loss if that's all that's been put down on paper.

The author also mentions that histories are available. It wasn't clear to me whether he was talking about Norris or Mathieson and Preston. I'm interested to know about anything out there that describes the reasoning and details of actual design and manufacturer. Just out of curiosity. Are there books you know about, other than the Lampert book on Spiers?

Steve, I wouldn't mind hearing how you think the "buttons" were formed, if you have an opinion.

If you think the only bedding problem on your own plane is wood standing too high on one side or the middle of the bed, you may well be able to work it down without removing the lever cap.

Almost all the wood I removed was from paring up from the mouth with a thin, broad, very sharp chisel...a 1 1/2" Greenlee I ransomed for pennies from an Ebay knick-knack peddler. The metal part of the bed acts as a ready made guide.

If you didn't have very much to remove, a scraper or float might work...but I'd worry the float would get trashed on the steel. But how would I know. I don't have a float and have never used one. I have sharpened chisels with 90 degree bevels (rather than 25 degree) and they make a great scraper in tight throats like this, if you can get them sharp enough and not dub the edge.

Either way, I think you can get a pretty good idea how you're doing from eyeballing up through the throat, feeling how much the unclapped blade rocks and probing with feelers. Maybe that's what I should have done. All the bluing and fitting I was doing was probably superfluous. But I know I would have second guessed myself, and wished I would have pulled the lever cap. In the end it was an impulse...like jumping off a bridge.

I'm rambling.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#8

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

Frank Mutchler

>Bob, thanks very much for letting me come along on another great odyssey! I'll probably never own a Norris and get the chance to explore its nooks and crannies and so your posts are a real treasure to me. What is it about the 'feel' of the plane that bothers you? Do you have an A5 that you can compare it with?

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#9

Re: Norris Side Buttons

Cameron

>WoodburnBob wrote:

"I don't get why, if the apprentice was alive and talking in 2000, someone didn't go out and interogate him for a few weeks on video. Jeez. Last surviving guy who actually worked in the factory. What a loss if that's all that's been put down on paper."

I'm not sure if he was still alive in 2000 actually? Can't remember? I do think though that the actual interview with the apprentice took place in the early 80's (1983 from memory). It was written up in one of the handtool collectors society papers but I don't think it got that much recognition elsewhere? Possibly the 2000 article took passages from the earlier interview?

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#10

Re: Norris Side Buttons

WoodburnBob

>Thanks for the clarification, Cameron. Boy, it would sure be great if there was a long detailed interview out there somewhere, and the article on the Murland site was just a short exerpt. Especially, if some generous person could dig out the original and put it up here on the forum or somewhere on the WWW.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#11

Re: Norris Side Buttons

joel

>The individual was W. J. Yarranton who apprenticed at Norris from 1939-1943. For the compleete interview see Tools and Historic Trades #29 spring 1990. It's copywritten material so cannot be posted without permission.

The interview is short and leaves out tons of information we would all like to have. My understanding is that Mr. Yarranton is still alive but very incapacited and since that interview has basically declined to be interviewed again. Apparently he feels that part of his life closed and he has no interested being questioned on the minutiea of his experience. I could be wrong on the latter, perhaps a UK person might have more current or more accurate information.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#12

Re: Norris Side Buttons

Steve Elliott

>Bob,

The only reference I have aside from the Lampert book is Scottish and English Metal Planes by Ken Roberts. It is a reprint of two Spiers catalogs and two Norris ones, and has some additional comments by Roberts. There was a 1979 edtiion and an enlarged 1991 edition.

As for the buttons, I'm puzzled about how they were formed. They look like they could be oversized rivets, but I can't see any trace of a peened rivet end on the outside of the plane. My postwar A5 has the "nibs" described in the Murland article, and they seem to be integral to the plane sides. There's been some discussion about whether the sides and sole were welded on these planes, and I don't know for sure about that either. They're not dovetailed, and the interior surfaces don't show the texture of a casting.

I tried to email you, but it bounced. Could you ping me, so I can reply?

Steve

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#13

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

WoodburnBob

>Frank, I'm ashamed to say there are 2 other A5s here and quite a few other planes. At best, the A5s come in short of a well tuned Bedrock with a stock cutter, which is well short of an out of the box LN 164...which I think is probably the gold standard for performance (if not beauty, mystic, old world manliness and all those elusive intangibles), at least in my hands. Beware that this may mostly be a judgment on "in my hands" far more than the individual specific planes. For the antiques, I'm most confident in getting predictable and consistent tuning outcomes from Spiers, Mathieson and Preston infill smoothers. They "feel" the best. Most of them need lots of work but it's worth it (to me).

By feel I sure don't mean anything mystical. Partly, feel is about weight, apparent density, momentum, balance. The A5 feels like an awkward tool;an old Spiers (etc.) feels like a piece of sculpture in the hand. Partly, it's how smooth and steady the cutter goes through the wood, how much effort, how much digging and skipping. Partly, it's vibration up through the tote into the hand. The sound, the look of the shavings bubbling up, and the reflectivity of the wood surface aren't exactly feel but are part of what I think of as the feel. Obviously, much of this has to do with how keen you can get the cutting edge but given that most of my edges are equally keen..."feel" is what I think of as all the rest.

But, alas, maybe this is just sophomoric baloney that I tell myself when I slip into a phoney and pretentious mood. Still, you asked.

Incidentally, it's now clear to me that we're all going to croak one of these days. As I get older, I am more aware of this fact. Frank, if you think an A5, or any other plane, would make you happy, even temporarily...get one. What'll it really cost you to be happy for awhile?

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#14

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

joel

>I am sorry to hear you are getting such bad performance on your A5. All of mine perform a lot better than any cast plane I own, including some highly tuned bedrocks. My results are pretty consitent with the results other people I know.

I am wondering why you are having such mediocre results.

Is it a performance issue, which I don't understand. OR a "Feel" issue which is highyl subjective and certainly every plane doesn't cotton on to everyone.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#15

Norris blade Buttons - opinion

Art Geiger

>I asked Darryl Hutchinson of Classic Planes - the contemporary Norris planemaker. His opinion was that the discs were most likely lathe turned with a central stub for rivetting. The sides were then drilled through, the disc put in place and the stub peened over. He said the 'rivet' is often evident on the outsides of post-war A5's that have been 'cleaned' excessively.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#16

Re: Norris blade Buttons - opinion

Cameron

>I also have a couple of Norris's with a visable external "joint". I might knock one of them out sometime to see what makes them tick.

Not that they're actually ticking but you know what I mean.....

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#17

The answers I can think of:

WoodburnBob

>To the question of why the poor performance from my A5, when everyone else has no problem getting superior performance:

I've done my best with photos and words to show two answers... 1) a seriously concave sole, and 2) a bad bed that allows the blade to rock and dive.

I haven't complained about the adjuster, but could. I haven't shown how the top iron, having an off center screw hole, sets up proud of the iron and crowds the "button", and thus causes the blade assemble to bind and perhaps lift...until the problem is discovered and fixed.

All these things can be fixed and when they are, I'm just saying I'm not impressed. Clearly, it may be a function of my own ham-handed counterproductive repairs and unwitting damage I've done in the process. There's no particulary reason to believe I have any idea what I'm doing. In part that's why I generate so many detailed pictures and words: to let you judge for yourself. Certainly, there's nearly total subjectivity about "feel".

The final possible answer is that I'm a Westcoast cheap-skate. My only access to an A5 is via Ebay or online dealers. I don't buy the $500 A5, I buy the $300 A5. It's possible that if I bought the $650 and up A5 I wouldn't be having any of these "problems". Sometimes I wonder if the planes I buy aren't traveling an endless circle of ignorant and unhappy buyers: bought cheap, used unsuccessfully, sold quickly. Maybe the planes I buy are actually endlessly travelling the globe like retirees on a cruise ship, hoping to be transformed to the condition of their youth.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#18

I Have to Agree With Joel

Hank Knight

>I have a pretty full compliment of Bedrock smoothers that I keeped tuned and sharp. I have only only one Norris - an A5. The Norris is the plane I reach for first every time. I like the "feel" and it gives me consistently excellent performance. I haven't needed to dismember my A5 for major fettling to get it to perform well. Nevertheless, I have enjoyed Bob's infill anatomy posts very much. Thanks Bob, I appreciate your work and your insight on tools and woodworking.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#19

Norris performance (long)

joel

>THere are really 4 different styles of Norris smooth planes (5 if you count the 19th century wedged ones but I have never had one in my hand.)

1) Dovetailed or cast planes with rosewood infill under the iron. The pre-war a5's are the most common of these and currently run about 1500 and up. A few cast models have the rosewood too but most models don't. the closed handle versions (a5 and a6) are the more popular but open handled versions had their fans too. THe very top of the Norris line is the (a)17 which is bronze with rosewood infill. All of these planes have the potential of being quite sublime in use and they are the models that Norris built their reputation on. in general the steel ones will be flatter than the cast ones.

2 - next come the cast models with an iron bed for the blade. I don't really consider these infills - having no infill where it counts. the 51 is the most common of these models and their performance can be in my expericence better than 95% of the cast bailey planes out there but I suppose there is a LN or two in that league. They don't work as well as category 1 planes.

3 - category 3 are the wooden norris smoothers which are the worst thing ever to come out of their factory and are an expensive collectible today. not relevant.

4 - the post war planes. Up until about 10 years ago when you said I got a norris it was understood to mean a pre-war plane. More than one dealer I on never dealt with them because as a group they do not perform anywhere near like the pre-=wars. they were pretty easy to come by and cheap. not really collectible either. That's changed - they are sort of collectible now - but they just don't have the fit and finish and the feel of a pre-war. you might have read previous posts where I say to my mind that everything on plane performance is fit and finish - well these planes don't have the fit and finish. I have one - never use it. It works ok but nothing special. I suppose mine works better than my bedrocks but I certainly could imagine most of them not doing so well. When I bought my pre-war A5 (for about $650 in 1986) I was warned against the post-wars and I only bought one recently to round out my collection. I do have a post war panel plane which is just wonderful - but I bought it from my teacher - don't know it is the exepction or the rule with post war panel planes. (early post wars - the later ones had the infill bolted in)

Of course a lot depends on fit and finish. a plane that has been cared for of category 12 should perform superbly a plane that has been cleaned up and modified or worn out of any category - well - they are at least 50 years old.

I think your experience and reporting has been very valuable. it reminds me that you can't make a gold purse out of a pigs ear - even if you try very very hard, and with the best of intentions. It also shows the limit of tuning when underlying structure isn't worth it. and of course I can't disagree with your process of tuing - if all the work you did - didn't help that much it shows the limitations of the post-wars and what long term problems underlying weaknesses in construction can do. I'm thinmking mostly of the way the infill is beeded and if the beech is not as good as rosewood.

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#20

Great info...

WoodburnBob

>Joel, I always value your comments and continue to learn from what you post. Emphasizing this prewar-postwar issue helps a lot. I'm sure not trying to disparage Norris planes in general. If the postwar A5 has critics, and in a sense isn't really thought of as a true "Norris", I guess I'm at least somewhat in sync with others.

Here's a couple older Norris's I managed to snag in "my price range".


The near one is heavy and dense with a good "feel" even with the cheesy tapered blade. It's on my list to inspect and so forth and put this plane through the paces with a better blade but I haven't gotten around to it. But I doubt there's much wrong with it, save the handle...and that's only cosmetic.

The far one is really a beauty...a prize. I got it for $220 from an online dealer. How I'll never understand. The iron is an unmarked replacement that came with it.

I think of these as prewar Norris planes. Would you agree?

Re: Another Norris A5 episode (*PICS*)

#21

Re: Great info...

joel

>Certainly a pre-war. I'm not personally a fan of the open handle but it is a very beautiful plane (the front bun is lovely). Coffin shaped too which is nice. Shame about the handle - which is part of the reason why the (A)2 is a lot rarer than the (A)5.

It's probably seen a lot of use considering the condition and the replacement blade. A good pareelle blade will make it easier to adjust also.

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