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more Info on diamond lapping plates

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more Info on diamond lapping plates

#1

more Info on diamond lapping plates

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I probably should say diamond grinding plates, at least for the coarse sizes.

I talked with a person who makes his living polishing precious stones. he was most helpful and supplied the following information.

How do you charge cast iron lapidary wheel (presuming charging a cast iron plate will be equivalent)? Answer: Brush cast iron surface with wire brush. Then, scratch perpendicular to lapping direction. Use razor blade and scratch every 2 mm. (This operation provides a place for the diamond paste to lodge)) Smear on diamond paste with finger, not too thick.

What grit do you use? To find optimum grit start with the coarsest grit you intend to use. Then step directly to finest grit you need to use. If this fine grit is too slow at removing scratches of previous grit then split the difference with an intermediate grit. Usually 3 is all that is necessary. (but he does not start with very coarse grits. he steps from 6 to 1/2 micron for stones. Metal should be vastly easier to grind than precious stones)

Are their substrates other than cast iron that could be useful? Answer: Tin alloy but it will probably be too soft. Ceramic for the final grit cuts very fast and stays flat.He highly recommended it for final grit. (I have ordered a sheet of ceramic for evaluation) Finally he said that Corian has been used with success. (Corian is acrylic filled with some mineral and pigment filler. This information makes me think that Plexigals(acrylic) may well be the most cost effective substrate for our use- $3 for a 3 x 12 x 1/2" piece from MSC.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#2

Re: Thanks for Info on diamond lapping

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Bill I really appreciate the thoughtful explorations you have made into these techniques, and your willingness to freely share the knowledge and experience you have acquired. I find the information in your reports to be of considerable value, and am in your debt for them.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#3

Big Dittos to what Lyn said....;>)!!!

Frank Mutchler

>

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#4

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates *LINK*

Robin Frierson

>Thanks for the info Bill. I have been looking at laps like this for my Lee Valley Powersharpener, but the high costs have deterred me from trying them. I see they utilize all kinds of materails, copper, zinc, phenolic, but seems you could spend a fortune getting a lap for different grits, so perhaps just having one for the final polish is all that would be feasable.

I have found the disc protectors listed on the link to work very well for storing the PS discs and keeping them contamination free. Lynn, did you ever get any? I think Rob Lee should consider offering them as a Power Sharpener accessory.

I would like some help though on using fine abrasives like Linde A and such on the Powersharpener. I ordered a few other fine compounds and wonder what is the best way to utilize them, just smear some on a fine .03 or.05 abrasive or would one of the above laps work better. Linde A is a powder so some type of binder is needed.


laps

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#5

an opposit approach, and grinding philosophy

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>To make this discussion clear let me define bench grinders, LV sharpening system, belt sander, hand crank grinder, etc. where the abrasive particles move past that to be sharpened at relatively high speed as "power grinding". When the object is moved by hand at slow speed across the abrasive i will call it "hand grinding". And, we will not further define what we are doing-lapping, sharpening, etc. and just lump it all into metal removal.

The most important thing I have learned in sharpening is that all of the worn edge must be removed to establish a new shap edge, be it planes or scrapers. Therefore, the objective of the first stage of sharpening, "Step 1" is removing enough metal to remove the old worn edge. Formation of a burr indicates that this objective has been achieved. The rest of the sharpening process(I will call these steps "Step 2") consists of removing the scratches of the previous grit size to establish a finer scratch size. This process continues through successively finer grits until "it's good enough". Compared to Step 1, very little metal is removed in all of Step 2.

These steps can be easily followed with a 10X lens and it is informative to do so.

Fundamental Principle** If in Step 2 the reduction in grit size between steps is not huge, these steps require very little abrasive action(time). If you have read our article on sharping with abrasive sheets (Articles Section) we show that only a few hand grinding strokes are necessary to remove previous grit scratches and the abrasive lasts a long time. The secret is to not make big jumps in grit reduction.

It seems to me that power grinding has its greatest benefit in Step 1 where a relatively large amound of metal must be removed. The turning community enthusiastically employs this practice. If the scratches in step 1 are coarse and the goal is very small scratches at the final edge, then two approaches are possible. Big reductions in grit size can be made with the need for a lot of grinding at each step ( and resultant great wear on the abrasive).Either power grinding or tedious hand grinding would be required. If relatively smaller steps in grit size reduction are used in Step 2, very little time is required at each step. Hence, the desired result is easily and cheaply achieved with hand grinding. The "cost" is the necessary inventory and inconvenience of more abrasive devises (stones, paper, lapping wheels, whatever) to cover all the required steps.

Diamond cuts much faster than any other abrasive we have tried. Hence, the steps between grits in Step 2 can be bigger, maybe much bigger, that we recommend in the abrasive sheet sharpening article. For aluminium oxide and silicon carbide a size reduction of about 30% per step is recommended. For diamond a factor of two is recommended and our preliminary work sugggests a factor of 4 is possible for tool steel.

I don't know if the following will work, because I have not tried all the steps and materials in a controlled fashion. But I think it has a good chance of working based on what has been done. I mention this information to encourage others to experiment with what I think could be an effective approach that doesn't cost much to impliment.

Step 1- power grind with something that will quickly establish a burr.

Step 2- Using cheap diamond charged on cheap 3 x 12" acrylic plates, or more expensive cast iron plates (more on this in a later post), take about 5-10 hand strokes using 60 or 30 micron diamond. 30 vs 60 will depend on how coarse the scratches are from Step 1. Repeat with a grit 4 times smaller. Continue until it is good enough. I have been stopping at 6 micron but most will want to go to 3. My planning objectives are such that I have no useful information as to whether even finer grits can be beneficial.

Most of us already have a power grinder to achieve Step 1 objective. If one sharpenes more often than I tend to do, Step 1 may not even be necessary. Less than $100 will purchase the acrylic and a near lifetime supply of diamond paste or powder necessary to achieve Step 2. (12 x 12 acrylic plate is about $12 and diamond paste is about $15 for 5 grams paste or $24 for 25 carats of powder).

I do have a fair amount of experience using the above approach for lathe tool sharpening and have found it quick, effective and cheap(I stop at 15 micron for fine truning work). I am about to do a lot less latheing and more planning and chiseling so may have more to say later.

bottom line to this long winded answer, I think it makes more sense to power grind on the coarser grits and hand grind for the smaller.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#6

Re: Thanks for Info on diamond lapping

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>You are welcome and thankyou for the encouragement. You set the high standards for reporting that we should strive to achieve.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#7

Cleaning between grits

Robin Frierson

>Bill I have switched over to Diamonds exclusively for the backs, and wonder what type of efforts you take to prevent contamination between grits? Do you wipe the iron between grits or take more action, like washing them. I have found it easy to get the coarser diamonds into the finer diamonds unless the iron is cleaned between grits, as the oil based binder clings to the iron.

Do you also find the diamonds embed themselves in the cast iron, or can you easily clean the plate and reuse it with a different grit?

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#8

Re: an opposit approach, and grinding philosophy

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>A great presentation for this forum. While I recognize in this setting you are limited in how widely you can cover all factors (and why readers should also read your referenced article on abrasive sheet sharpening), I'd like to emphasize, however, that some of your recommendations and conclusions are also affected by factors that at some point would be wise to integrate into any current discussion.

The first is heat production (influenced by many factors including abrasive size and shape, speed of power grinder, and cooling medium) which for some steels will have considerable influence on edge life. This may affect choice of power grinder, as the heat generated in step may become a dominant factor, irrespective of later edge refinement.

Second is the ability to achieve repeatable presentation of the tool to the sharpening media, whatever that might be (singularly or in combination). Your statement of rapid removal of previous scratches can only be achieved if the tool is consistently presented to the abrasive. Any variation in presentation (either by change in bevel angle, change in approach to the bevel, or lack of consistent shape of the abrasive substrate [that is, flatness or variation from a defined curvature]) will require additional removal of steel to achieve the slight change in geometry in addition to the scratch pattern refinement. (This relative reapeatability, of course, is the feature of such power units as the LVPSS, the Tormek, and the better hand honing guides. Interestingly, the size of the abrasive particles themselves can cause mild geometry changes in fixed carriage systems).

Third, is the issue of flat vs hollow grind achieved in your step one. Flat grinds on a large tool (particulary with some of the more abrasion resistant steels) are going to require additional time during your stage two to refine scratch patterns and will influence how large a step between abrasive sizes is advisable. My experience with non diamond abrasives is that with the more abrasion resistant steels, it can actually take a considerable amount of time using a finer abrasive to effectively remove a prior coarser scratch pattern.

A short simple discussion of optimal sharpening practice is almost impossible to perform, though I think you have offered one of the better brief discussions. I am probably most concerned with maintenance of a single desired geometry throughout all the abrasive steps, and ease with which it can be achieved. This is one of the major reasons why I am rather fond of both the Tormek and the LVPSS.

Again, none of this is intended to take anything away from this presentation, which I think is thoughtful, based on sound observations, and practical. It is just my desire to place it in a bit larger context.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#9

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Hi Robin,

I did get one for each of my platters and like them a lot, though the cost gets considerable if you have a lot of platters. I think they are an excellent way to avoid contamination of abrasives. They are a bit bulky, but I intend to build a wall mount, open shelved cabinet for them that should make them even more convenient to access and use. At the time I ordered mine, I was only aware of them being available with a 1/2 inch arbor post in the center. I trimmed this down with a chisel, but left it oversize as I find being able to tilt the plater within the case makes it a lot easer to remove them. I see that there is now a screw post version, though I don't know if I'd still have the tilt ability with that model. If price isn't a problem, I can easily reinforce your recommendation of them. However, unless price can be reduced from $5 a piece, I suspect LV is unlikely to pick them up, though hopefully it might spur them to offering a lower priced alternative of similar function.

With regards to the fine honing compounds, if they are wax based sticks, then I suggest applying them to a comparably sized abrasive sheet like the 3M microfine .5 and .3 micron PSA films. This has resulted in an even and durable adherance of compound to the platter.

Those abrasives that come without a binder, or with a lighter binder (such as light oil) are more of a challenge, as you have found out. My current technique is to use a PSA backed mylar film such as LV provides (even thinner version that the LV are desirable but not always easy to obtain) adhered to the platter. Then create a very thin slurry of powder and water, which will make it a lot easier to work with the superfine powder. Apply the slurry to the laminated platter, and use a clean roller (for example a lacquered maple dowel you dedicated to this purpose and grit size) to press the particles into the surface of the mylar. Let the water dry, tap off the loose particles, and you have an effective platter which can be recharged with the same techiques.

I'm just getting ready to extend this technique to powdered diamonds, but haven't yet had the chance to experiment with dry and paste slurries of diamonds, but suspect they will adhere about as well.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#10

Re: an opposit approach, and grinding philosophy

Tim of San Leandro

>so far I've had very good results using cold rolled 1018 carbon steel as the substrate for diamond paste/mineral sprits....I did lap the steel plates flat using abrasives and a granite reference plate. I stopped the lapping at 120 micron paper and used several circular laps as the very last passes to give "ridges" for the diamond. I'd suggest contacting customsandingbelts.com to get zirconia and AlOx papers at affordable prices for lapping steel or cast iron plates. I've got a Tap plastics down the street from me, I'll have to stop in and see if they've got any acrylic plates to try.

I get very good edges with this and still use the same techniques for sharpening as I did with waterstones....but the diamonds cut MUCH FASTER than my King waterstones and the plates have so far stayed flat.

Tim

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#11

ESSENTIAL!

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I wash the tool with mineral spirits that I keep in a handy dropper bottle and then wipe with clean paper towel from the paper towel rack my wife thoughtfully provided.

It is believe that the diamond does embed in the cast iron and that is why it works and regular iron works less well. By embedding it becomes stationary while the tool rubs back and forth.

All reaons why acrylic could be attractive. At $3 for a 3 x 12 sheet I wouldn't feel bad throwing away a contaminated plate. I am sure the paidary people have some means of dealing with contaminated pates, but I failed to ask.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#12

couldn't agree more

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>No doubt I would own a low speed grinder if I would afford one. I think the perfect arrangement would be Tormek and then 15 micron diamond, or even less. And it would take but a few strokes to remove the Tormek scratches. Complete sharpening would be less than a minute.

If I had many plane iron backs to do I would take them to a machine shop and surface grind them once and for all. With a magnetic chuck one could do a bunch with one set up, certainly in less than a machine shop hour of labor.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#13

tell us more

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>What do you do before the diamond plates-grinder, what grit etc?

What diamond grit progression have you used on the plates?

Agreed, it is satisfying how much faster the diamond cuts, especially if you dislike sharpening to begin with.

I hope some purveyer of woodworking stuff is folowing this discussion and makes arrangements with a foundry in India to supply cast iron plates for $5 each.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#14

Re: tell us more

Tim of San Leandro

>Bill,

I do nothing before the diamonds....I'm not an antique tool junky. In fact, I just unloaded the few antique metal bodied planes I had and got some wonderful planes from Steve Knight. Hence, all the cutting tools I sharpen are already in decent shape. I thought about an 8 inch grinder but have since relegated that tool to the bottom of my want list. The rougher diamonds really cut steel (A2, O1 and japanese steels are what I'm sharpening) FAST.

I start with 325 mesh (45 micron, IIRC) and go to 50,000 mesh (0-1 micron). I have a bunch of sizes in between - 600 mesh, 1200 mesh, 8000, 14,000? I got a package of different grits. By far, I use the 325 anf 50,000 the most. 325 for starting sharpening so I can quickly get to fresh steel and 50,000 for the final polish. My guess is that I could get away with just 325 or 600, the 8000 and the 50,000 alone. IIRC, Joel recommends only 3 grits for diamond compound sharpening.

The steel plates have been holding up really well, especially for the finer grits. The 325 grit plate definitely shows scratches from the diamond so I'll have to keep a close eye on that plate for dishing.

Tim

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#15

Re: couldn't agree more

Tim of San Leandro

>Bill,

something tells me the machine shop might not be too happy with you afterwards......especially if you asked them to surface grind several irons made from hardened CPM V3, nevermind hardened A2 or even hardened high carbon steel.

Tim

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#16

David Barnett

BATT lap - hard tin alloy *LINK*

David Barnett

>Not many faceters outside the diamond cutting industry use iron laps, these days, as they've been largely supplanted by diamond plated and sintered laps, but I've got a couple Meehanite laps that I pull out of retirement now and then. Your friend describes the typical charge for an iron lap, although there are many variations on scratching and breaking in.

"Are their substrates other than cast iron that could be useful? Answer: Tin alloy but it will probably be too soft."

Well, pure copper, tins and most tin alloys are soft, yes (not always a bad thing - softer gems are often polished on wax laps), but not the BATT(tm) alloy from Jonothan Rolfe. I've used these since he started making them, charged with loose diamond grit for final polishing of corundum (ruby, sapphire). They are superb, hold the grit exceptionally well, need little preparation/maintance, and are two-sided. These are hard enough to allow dead flat prepolish and finals - good enough for competition faceting, and are affordable. Jon will also make custom sized laps if 6" or 8" isn't right for you. Until the BATT, I used ceramic with spray diamond (to 100,000 mesh), but suffered like many others from the nail-on-chalkboard screeching, slow break-ins and miserable phantom scratches to which they are prone. I use my ceramics for final polishing gravers, nowadays.

An alternative to scratching laps with razor blades is a tool made for the purpose. It's similar to a knurl on a handle. You can find them at most lapidary and faceting suppliers online.

As for Corian, I've tried it and am not particulary convinced of its worth. Plexiglass/Lucite are used by some faceters but they tend to heat the gem material when used with diamond paste, causing the dopping compounds to lose their grip or damaging heat-sensitive stones. This shouldn't be a problem with steel. Some faceters have tried the polycarb CDs (especially from AOL, heh), but they're too small for plane irons.

While gem faceting and polishing techniques may be somewhat germane to honing woodworking tools (okay, two or three facets), you can exploit cheaper materials and machines with lower tolerances for blade work. You could also build your own horizontal lapping/sharpening machine for very little money, although the LV is attractively priced.

MAJOR GLOAT: I got my variable-speed RayTech-Shaw faceter with a dozen laps, dops, protractor arm, everything., for about the same money as the LV. A simple homemade jig lets me hone and polish blades if I'm so inclined, and a couple improvised (cheap) strops charged with the green crayon (chromium), et al, keep things very scary.


img

BATT cast alloy laps

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#17

David Barnett

On scoring laps (not pretty) *LINK*

David Barnett

>Here's an article from Jeff Graham (a good rough dealer and a master faceter). He uses a piece of hacksaw. Not a pretty picture, is it?

There's more information on lap preparation and charging under "Just Ask Jeff".


From Jeff Graham at www.faceters.com

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#18

Re: an opposit approach, and grinding philosophy

Murray in Palo Alto

>I've unsuccessfully tried acrylic plate. It seems that the plate rapidly lost its ability to cut. I suspect that the grit became too deeply embedded as I drew the blade(s) over it. If you do try this, I'd like to hear about your experience and results.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#19

BATTlap query

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Do you think the source could make such a lap in a retangular format for hand honeing?

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#20

Re: couldn't agree more

steve knight

>I find grinding hard steel is far easier on abrasives then soft steel is. I get longer belt life regrinding nicked hardened irons then when they are soft and I am making them. I think soft steel tends to clog the abrasive and build up more heat.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#21

Re: On scoring laps (not pretty)

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Well, after that I just ceased to worry about the minor scratches left in my cast iron plates by the

Blanchard (sp?) Grinder used to flatten them.

Thanks fo the most helpful information

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#22

David Barnett

Thought you'd like that, Bill...

David Barnett

>By the way, you wouldn't do that to a BATT lap, as it develops a sort of micro-corrugated surface that really does the trick with diamond, whether loose or paste. Also, the BATT tends to improve up to a point and then just stays great. Although I've put these through their paces, I haven't even come close to asking Jon to resurface them. I'd almost wonder what you'd have to do to wear them down short of abuse (too much pressure, maybe? - only a concern with gems, I'd think). Oh, and this is almost hard to believe, but I've switched from coarser mesh to fine mesh on the same lap surface after a cleaning, and NO problems.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#23

David Barnett

I don't see why not...

David Barnett

>...although Jon might. Can't hurt to ask. As it's a cast product, then machined, it would seem doable. There are a few faceters who use only hand power (the Neanderthals of the gem cutting world, I suppose), although it's unusual. On the other hand, when cutting and polishing some of the more exotic garnets, I turn off the rotation and sweep the lap.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#24

David Barnett

Exactly so...

David Barnett

>The lapidary use of acrylic (Plexiglass, Perspex, Lucite) is entirely limited to oxide polishes:

Cerium oxide for quartz, beryl, tourmaline

LindeA (alumina) for topaz, garnet, tourmaline, peridot

The heat generated with diamond further softens the acrylic, enveloping the grit. While the price seems attractive, there are better substrates.

Re: more Info on diamond lapping plates

#25

Re: couldn't agree more

Tim of San Leandro

>Steve,

I'm not a machinist by any means....I thought that surfacing a flat was done by milling it rather than grinding with abrasive....first mill to flat, then go to abasives to get smooth. Someone posted a milling machine they set up to mill soles of planes flat...that looked like it used a cutting edge to remove chips/shavings of metal. I would think something like that would suffer terribly if asked to cut hardened tool steels.

Tim

so do you grind the bevels on your O1 irons after hardening? As in, you purchase prehardened O1 tool steel?

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