D.T.s

Re: D.T.s

David Miller from Iowa

>I'm not sure there is a magical number - if you are proud of the way they look go with it, if not keep practicing. I find that much of the magic is in the marking - are you using a knife or a pencil?

I'm no dovetail master, although I don't have to use plastic wood when I'm done, either. I have reached a point where I won't redo a drawer if I have a gap somewhere - as long as the joint is tight.

Also, I've never made a piece that I cannot point out 10 things wrong with it, usually starting with DTs.

Re: D.T.s

Asher F.

>As long as you cut on the waste side, you should be able to get a tight fit.

Re: D.T.s

Dan Donaldson

>So they fit together without pounding and splitting the wood, but without too many gaps ;-)

(tongue in cheek ;-))

I think it depends a lot on the kind of wood too. Softwoods like pine or poplar can have them a bit tighter as the wood will crush a bit for fit. Really hard woods like maple, oak, or exotics need a finer initial cut to fit properly.

Yes

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Agree. This is the heart of the matter. Dwight, how are you transferring marks from the first board to the second? Pencil? Knife? If the gaps are pretty consistent, this would suggest that you may be consistently cutting into your marks. The mark itself should be preserved as part of the 'good wood'. For example, making a pencil or ink line, and splitting that line, is cutting meat from the joint--the whole line should be kept. That's why people recommend transferring marks with a knife--to reduce marking/sawing error. Even there, the minute the saw cuts into the knife mark, it's cutting into the meat of the joint. The mark belongs with the live wood, not the waste.

Stick with it. You're at the stage where it's just one or two little bitty things to be corrected.

Wiley

What I do

jim_reed@marietta

>If we all had time to apprentice for a few years, our masters would have beat good DT skills into us by now. Since that is not the case for me, I have to *cheat* a bit. Here are some of my favorites: 1) Use poplar for drawer sides. It is very easy to work for tails. 2) Cut tail as a *slight* wedge which is loose on the inside and tight only at the show point. You can then pound it into submission without cracking anything. 3) Make the tail about 1/16" or 1/32" proud and then plane the fitted drawer side down until the tail is flush with the pins. If you did everything pretty close, this finishing touch makes everything look perfect. 4) On a bad boo-boo, carefully fit in a sliver of wood to close the gap. Good luck with yours.

Agree, pretty well was going to be my response

Andrew F in Australia

>

Flauntable and functional

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I don't have much problem achieving a fit as good as the drawers in any of the family antiques. I quit trying to achieve the perfection of those that do them often enough, and have the will, to become perfect. Somewhere in the history of dovetails they became a way to flaunt one's woodworking talent rather than the best way to hold a drawer together. Personally, I decided I could spend time making perfect dovetails and not complete as many projects, or make more things. I went with the make more things and use adequate, functional dovetails. My benchmark is the quality I see in antiques made by people trying to make a living. Some of the time they fall short of what I see on the cover of FWW, but I have decided to accept a lower postion on the woodworking pecking order.

Re: Flauntable and functional

Dwight

>Thanks to all for the responses. I am wanting to get good enough to make 2 blanket chest for grand kids that they will be proud of later on. But as Bill T. says that may be to time consuming I am working with cherry,maple&walnut, I have decent tools, so so patients (getting better) & a shakey hand. This may work out over 1 to 2 yrs. But I do want to start right. I do use a marking knife, and generally a 10* template. Hope to post good things later on and maybe a picture.

Re: Flauntable and functional

Tim of San Leandro

>I think tolerances need to be tighter if you dovetail a case together since those are seen everytime you look at the piece. Dovetails for drawers need only functionality....any aesthetics is just whipped cream.

If you've just got minute gaps...as in can only see them upon examination....then try using a very damp (not dripping wet) rag or sponge to wipe the glue squeeze out (even if there is no squeeze out!). this swells the pins and tails a bit, closing any small gaps and the glue keeps them fitted very tightly. Gorman's site suggests this and it works for me...

Re: D.T.s

R.J.Whelan

>Dwight ... my grandfather taught me how to do DTs almost 50 years ago - in other words "I've cut more than a few of these most elegant little joints". (I never cut a DT the old man was satisfied with � were he still alive he would probably still find a little problem here and there).

Here are a few observations:

1. It helps to make a right angle jig (couple of pieces of �" plywood) to hold the two boards in alignment while transferring pins to tail board (or vice-versa if you like).

2. A good marking out knife is very helpful - I just got a really nice little knife from Dave Jeske (Blue Spruce Toolworks).

3. A good saw is a big plus. I've used Japanese saws and western: personally I like the western saws better - probably because I learned with this type. The key is having a saw you don�t have to fight.

4. Sharp chisels � I�ve used all kinds and as long as they hold an edge for a reasonable period of time the brand and pedigree probably don�t matter that much. DT chisels are easier to use on small joints (say �� and smaller ; larger tails can be cut with bench chisels).

5. Keep a stone on the bench when cutting DTs (I use a black Arkansas) and touch up the bevel on your chisels frequently � if I�m working really hard material I will touch up the chisel after each DT.

6. Light taps with the hammer or mallet while chiseling (tap-tap; not bang-bang)

7. If I do a kitchen or bath for a customer I might go a couple of months without cutting a DT: when I go back to a furniture job I can�t cut a decent DT without doing several �practice� joints (in the material I�m working with).

8. There is something to be said for �muscle memory�. If you cut DTs for 3-4 hours you�ll find the ones you do at the end of the stint (assuming you don�t get fatigued) are easier and better looking than the ones done at the beginning. Try to plan your project so you do all of your DTs in one or two fairly long sessions. If you have six drawers to do and you only do one drawer at a time (possibly with several days between each one) your muscles have to learn the movements all over each time � yes there is some residual memory but most of that is actually cerebral.

9. Find a comfortable position in which to work � I sit on a stool when chiseling; I stand while sawing.

10. A little jig to keep the chisel vertical is a perfectly acceptable tool � I actually cut my chisel guides with a 1� back bevel.

Good luck and stick with it � the more of these beautiful little joints you make the better they�ll look and the quicker you�ll become.

rj

suggestion for learning

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I arrived at making acceptable dovetails by making ones no one cared about. To clarify, once I decided I wanted to move from machine cut dovetails (Keller) to hand cut, I seized ever opportunity to make them. So, I dovetailed together a bracket for the sausage grinder to get it high enough to use, I dovetailed a stool for the barn to sit on while changing boots, I dove tailed a cabinet to sit under the lathe, some replacement kitchen drawers, etc. These were all stress free projects that I didn't care how they looked. So, I could experiment on sawing techniques, ***marking***, how close to line to saw, how tight they could be before splitting something, spaceing,etc. And guess what? After a few of these projects I was making acceptable dovetails that would be good enough for a blanket chest, but not good enough for a walnut on maple "out there for all to see" dovetailed modern whatever piece.

I find that my accuracy is limited by the process of marking- holding pieces rigid, and making the mark reproducibly indexed against the mating piece. Doesn't seem like this would be harder than sawing but it is for me.

PS: one will note that in most cases the dovetails holding case goods together in classic styled pieces were hidden or otherwise inconspicuous in the assembled piece.

Also...

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>You may be able to close some gaps by striking the end grain of the pins with a hammer before planing or sanding them flush. Easy does it.

Best, Ted

Re: D.T.s

Dwight

>Thanks again all. R.J. your post may prove to be most helpful. Have LN 15ppi rip saw, 90* jig, like the vertical chop jig idea will pursue. and decent chisels, but my sharpening ability is about on par with dt cuts. thanks again

Re: suggestion for learning

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>Bill's got a great answer. Using shop projects to practice new techniques and refine them is an excellant way to learn and be productive at the same time. It's never wise or cheap to make your mistakes on projects which end up in the living room. DAMHIKT

My Advice

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Dwight,

I think the attention woodworkers pay to DT's is undeserved and relatively new. I've seen old Dt's and they just aren't that nice.

Here's my advice:

1) Forget perfect and focus on fast and functional. That means skipping the jigs and special finicky tricks. Shoot for winners and accept/shim losers.

2) Yeah marking is important. You need to use care. But its not that hard. I mark with ye olde 18th century mechanical drafting pencil with .9mm HB graphite leads! Since I don't plane my end grain, I can never see knife marks.

3) The key to cutting DT's is sawing accurately. Remember: regardless of whether you saw tails first or pins first, you only need to hold the mark made with your try square. You can fudge the other line. So let those first boards be your practice.

Otherwise, were I to teach DTs and I never have, I'd ask folks to cross-cut with a panel saw first. Sawing is really the gateway skill to successful DT'ing.

I know some guys try to put their saws flat on the end grain. That simply isn't the way saws work and cross cutting teaches you that.

Good luck and be proud of everything you do. There's no such thing as perfect dovetails. They either have some (meaningless) flaw or the guy spent too long making them.

Adam

Re: D.T.s

Alan Hamilton

>Dwight,

It's funny, but as my eyesight grows worse my dovetails look better. If I'd only known sooner...

Alan