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I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

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I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#1

I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

WoodburnBob

>...about the generalizability of "lapping = convexity". It's possible that you and I are merely members of a race of men for whom that's true in certain circumstances...using certain methods and techniques...and in our present uncertain state of development. I don't completely discount the idea that you or I might someday emerge from a cocoon and fly off with the others.

[Paul Womack thinks he hijacked the earlier thread on my infill rehab. Actually, this issue of "lapping" is an always seductive topic for me. Thus, I've hijacked his hijack into a new thread so that if anything truly profound comes out of the fog it won't get missed.]

There was a ton of "Pond" posts on this topic in years past characterized by much testimonial and no consensus. Even here and now, various WC members routinely describe or imply the "flattening" either of plane soles or of cutter face/backs by, in effect, lapping. I often wonder if 1) they are somehow simply gifted, or 2) they never bother to put a good straightedge inspection to their work. Either way they seem happy with the outcome.

Just last night I needed to true up a water stone. In effect, I lapped the stone against an EZE-lap diamond plate. In less than 2 minutes I could wring them together so tightly Hercules himself wouldn't separate them by pulling. I lapped the sole of the Spiers plate flat...I thought...on the cast iron lapping plate. I lapped it smoother with a 123 block wrapped with abrasive paper. What I can't seem to do successfully is use what amounts to the "Scary Sharp" method to get things flat.

In one of my more masturbatory experiments a couple years ago, I lapped 3 plane soles together in the tradition method of "originating" a flat surface: abraiding A to B, B to C, C to A in long series of iterations. I wanted to see if it could be done. It seemed to more or less work.

Three ordinary block planes:



I've marked these with a little tag of tape so I don't mix up A and B and C. Clover compound, for those of you who don't know it, is basically SiC in grease. It comes in various grits. If you recall the look of this workbench from the infill pictures, this is the bench surface 2 years ago. Appalling, eh? Incidentally, for those who don't recognize it immediately, that odd looking, gray, pre-Columbian mother earth looking object is a hunk of clay. At the time I thought I'd model the next generation ergonomic plane handle, become rich and famous, and retire to a secluded paradise. I dropped the idea when I realized I'd get lonely, bored and paranoid.



There may be intervening photos, but I don't find them. This is the result of an hour or so of A/B, B/C, C/A rotation of rubbing the soles together (like rubbing your hands together on a cold day). A little dab of Clover compound is all that's used as abrasive. Every once in awhile I'd clean and spot the three of them to see how much progress I'd made. This is probably where I stopped.



I think this was poplar.



A nice piece of mahogany.


Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#2

Lapping and Convexity

Steve Elliott

>My experience is the same as yours. Scary Sharp methods using abrasive papers have always given me a slightly convex surface, especially at the edges. It's the edges (some of them) that I especially care about: the leading edge of the mouth on a plane sole, the business end of the back of a plane blade.

Using waterstones, I tend to get a slightly convex surface using the coarse stones, but as the stones get finer, the surface gets flatter. By the time I'm done with 8000x, the surface is almost optically flat clear up to the edge. (Not that I go to 8000x on a plane sole, but I can get it as flat as I want.)

Using a cast iron lapping plate and 1 micron diamond compound, the results fall between the other two methods. Not quite as flat as the waterstone method, but way better than abrasive papers.

I use W/D paper on a granite surface plate to flatten my waterstones, which probably leaves the edges dubbed a little. That doesn't matter, the stone still gives me a flat, non-dubbed surface on my blade.

I use waterstones to lap the backs of my blades and to remove the wire edge that forms when I hone the bevel, and use a lapping plate with diamond for the bevel. That combination gives me both speed and accuracy.

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#3

Re: Lapping and Convexity

deanj

>My experience also mirrors yours. It was the reason I moved away from SS to waterstones. No matter how I tried I could not avoid a dubbed edge using SS. Waterstone edges, for me, are sharper and last longer.

-Dean

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#4

Re: Lapping and Convexity

steve knight

>This is because the middle of the paper wears faster then the edges do. the simplest solution is to change the paper often. Or use strips as wide as the blade and run the blade with no side to side motion.

This problem happens whenever you se a wider sanding surface then what your sanding. It shows up in belt sanding and lapping plane soles too

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#5

Re: Steve...

paul womack

>Remind me - I seem to remember for doing the soles of your infills you were using a HUGE area of abrasive to minimise the "edge effects".

Am I right, or is my memory failing me?

BugBear

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#6

Re: David Charlesworth

paul womack

>...who is a noted plane fettler, and fine craftsman, advocates the flat abrasive approach in his books.

However, when I spoke to him on the subject at a Trade Show, he admitted that it results in slight convexity. He does NOT say this in his books ;-)

However he claimed (sour grapes?) that slight convexity could be tolerated, and was even desirable , since it counters any tendancy to dub the ends of the work when planing - indeed, you would tend to plane slightly hollow.

This may be furious rationalization on his part.

Karl Holtey is know to lap his plane soles. However, being a full on metal-head, I suspect that he means "lapping" in the "very fine loose abrasive embedded in a flat matrix, used for final finishing" sense, as opposed to the (somewaht non-standard) woodworkers' meaning.

BugBear

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#7

Re: David Charlesworth

david charlesworth

>Paul,

Sour grapes?

My observation is that slight convexity is a byproduct of the wet&dry method. i.e. not having a professional cast iron lapping plate available.

In use it transpires that a minute convexity is infinitely preferable to a minute concavity in the length (& width) of a plane sole.

Significant concavity in the length renders a plane almost useless as it will not plane a straight edge with a fine (1 thou of an inch) shaving.

PS Thank you for you correct interpretation of my ruler trick in the July 2nd thread.

It is designed to ensure razor sharpness with extreme consistency and a great saving of work at the back flattening stage. I use it for all my edge tools except chisels.

The minute alteration of angle has no impact whatsoever on bedding or anything else as the bevel is about half a degree and never gets wider than 1 mm.

I have found it difficult to explain all aspects of the method precicesly in my books, which is why I am so pleased to have been able to make the First video with L-N. Seeing is easier than reading!

My second video/DVD will show just how accurately it is possible to hand plane a modest sized component.

www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#8

Re: yikes!

paul womack

>How many famous lurkers do we have here?!?

BugBear

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#9

Not me . . .

Steve Elliott

>You're thinking of Steve Knight. I'm using regular-sized waterstones.

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#10

Re: yikes!

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>hehehe...

obviously one more than we all expected...

That's another to add to the list...

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#11

Re: Steve...

steve knight

>right a really big surface. it helps but does not eliminate it. but now with my whole suface plate covered I can work the edges with smaller planes to minimize it. but it is easier using smaller strips for most people.

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#12

Re: yikes!

Joe Rogers,Northern Virginia

>David has posted before. Welcome again to Woodcentral David.

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#13

Forrest Addy

WoodburnBob

>Historically, this topic tends to go from whether lapping must inevitably result in convexity, to whether small convexity (e.g. 0.001 to 0.010) is actually a virtue. Soon someone will mention the tearout removal purpose of the smoother and the advantage of convexity. Another will remind us of the effect of varying downward pressure on the toe and tote (Baileys and Bedrocks), and the effect on dynamically altering the sole flatness. Soon we enter the Zen-like mysteries of what is flat and what is curved. I love it.

Forrest Addy used to make sorties into the Pond's Neanderthal Haven. His knowledge of metal and machines is encyclopedic and he's very visible and respected in online metal circles. I see he posts intermittently on WC's power side.

Anyway he wrote a treatise on plane sole convexity within a very long BP-NH thread on this topic. Before reading it I worshipped only the flatness god, since then I'm agnostic.

I wish that someone with the BP CD would dig it out and post hit here.

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#14

Re: Lapping and Convexity

david charlesworth

>I would like to echo this experience.

Every chisel and plane blade that has been bought to me, by students using SS, has been convex at the tip of the flat side to some degree.

I am only posting because I am on holiday! Don't have time to lurk much.

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#15

Re: David Charlesworth

Vic P

>From a newbe:

Your vcr tape on sharpening/tuning a plane was most excellent and enlightening. Now if only I could get my son to watch it, maybe I would have a sharp plane available when I need it.

What other vidios if any are in the works?

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#16

That'll learn ya! ;~)

Alice Frampton, UK

>

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#17

Re: Forrest Addy

paul womack

>Anyway he wrote a treatise on plane sole convexity within a very long BP-NH thread on this topic.

IIRC it concerned a well behaved #5 with a non-flat sole.

BugBear

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#18

Re: reasons for flatness

paul womack

>The reason I try to make my plane soles flat is quite simple.

Clearly a badly warped plane sole won't work.

So they need to be flat to some tolerance.

They probably don't need to be as flat as I can get 'em using the spotting technique.

I do it because the idea of "perfect flatness" appeals to me; I don't claim it's needed for performance reasons, but neither is the chamfering on the edges of a Holtey.

In short, I like "perfecting" tools (whether it's needed for performance or not), and a perfectly flat sole is part of this.

BugBear (who spends a lot more time tweaking tools than working wood, and makes no apology for it)

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#19

FYI: Charlesworth Video on DVD...

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, Florida

>...will be available from Lie-Nielsen in about three weeks. Currently, they only have it on video cassette tapes.

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#20

Re: Forrest Addy *LINK*

Roger Nixon

>His post is still in the archives for a little longer.

Most people teed off on him because his setup isn't the way a smoother is done but he never claimed his plane was for smoothing. He says it is for flattening a board and close reading of his post reveals his setup is really just a common jack plane.

The linked post doesn't mention it, but in Badger Pond posts he said he had a camber in the blade and that he used a card scraper after planing with this plane.


Forrest on Plane Soles

Re: I'm not so sure, Paul... *PICS*

#21

Correction

Roger Nixon

>At the bottom of the post he does mention blade "curvature" and the use of scrapers.

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