Former Dilemma Thread

Re: Dilemma

David Miller from Iowa

>Good question. Sadly, not all those who are passionate about the craft have the same values. Not much to do except take your lumps and move on. I'd advocate keeping the forum out of any future action you may choose to take.

Re: Dilemma

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I knew of a similar situation in the past. I never involved the forum in the dispute. However I had a difficult time maintaining courtesy when that person posted. It can be done. Eventually the poster made good on the transactions.I still have some distrust for the individual but I can deal with it.JR

Re: Dilemma

Mark Nowicki

>If I was the one cheated I would deal with it privately, if someone else, I would mind my own business.

I don't think this forum is the right place to settle business disputes, gossip, or spread innuendos about the participants.

Respecfully Mark Nowicki

Re: Dilemma

Tony Z.

>Very tough call! Me personally, I'd like to know who the chump is. Many of the readers on this forum put blind faith in the content, and a person who is not honest amoung friends is apt to not be honest in their content.

On the other hand, how applicable is this sort of info for this board?

Re: Dilemma

Dale Stansbery

>I guess unless you know the potential buyer personally, the only safe thing to do is not ship until payed for with a money back guarantee. If they're not satisfied, then have them return the item in the same condition it was sent before a refund is given. I know WC seems like a very close community, but remember, any one can post, and respond, even from Nigeria as someone pointed out the other day.

I had an Ebay seller once ship me some Band-saw wheels, and after shipping, sent me the invoice for the purchase price plus shipping. He only had 1 feedback at the time as I recall. I'm guessing if he's continued that practice, he's had a few disappointments. I obviously gave him a very high feedback rating for prompt shipping (and, yes, I did pay him).

Re: Dilemma

Frank Mutchler

>I 'vote' for keeping it off the forum. Not because I have taken a position on your accusation but because I can see the forum then degenerating into a kind of political/moral correctness that inhibits the free exchange of ideas, etc.

I think the place to address the issue is at the time of sale by insisting on prepayment. We never know the character of the person behind the post. To assume that one's character is trustworthy because they indulge the same interests/hobbies/etc. as I do is a bit of a leap for me. My .02!

Re: Dilemma

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I feel for ya. If you had sold them thru the board I could honestly see posting who they are. Personally that's quite generous to ship and wait having bought quite a few beauties off of e-bay that I should have shipped back. Seems unfair to me hopefully they are reading and will get a guilty feeling and pay up or ship them back.

Answer this question...

Martin from Granbury

>If you sent money to a well known woodworking company, and they did not send you what you ordered in return, what would you do after you exhausted all efforts to obtain a refund from said company? Would you post the story here to warn others of the fraud that occurred? Or would you let your friends on this board be ripped off?

Witness the recent Jesada threads. Several people have done others on this forum a service by warning others that Jesada is out of business and should not be trusted to fill orders.

Witness the recent FWW CD threads...people warned us that the CD's may be pirated.

Conversely, I would not have discovered what a great company Lee Valley is without reading about them first on the Pond.

It is a matter of honor to complete a transaction that you have given your word to complete. Unfortunately, thieves have no honor, and, therefore, their word cannot be trusted. I think being able to trust people on this board is important.

I recently bought some magazines from someone who advertised them on this and other boards. I was away from the computer, but instructed my wife to send him a check asap as soon as she saw the email with his address. Why? Becaused I trusted him. In turn, he shipped the mags before even sending me the email with his address, because he said in the email something like..."I shipped the mags this morning, and the total with shipping was....". Why? Because he trusted me. I got my mags, probably the day before he got the check.

Now, what if he had a history, unknown to me, of advertising mags that didn't exist, never shipping the mags, but keeping checks. Wouldn't you want that info known so other members wouldn't be ripped off as well? I would!

What about a guy who ships a rusty plane? He should take it back, and then don't do business with him again. So you have to eat the shipping, that is the price you paid to look at the merchandise. If you drive to a store and don't see something you want to buy, do you expect the store owner to refund money for your gas? I didn't think so.

Sorry I got long winded, but if you can document that said person has not returned money or merchandise as agreed, than I vote that you out them to protect the rest of us. Sure, it will be unpleasant, but the community will be better off without them around anyway.

The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. I wish I could remember who said that.

This should be an interesting thread...

Martin

Remove 5 for correct email.

My recent experience...

Steve Kubien

>Recently I had an experience where I bought something from a person on this forum. I sent money and no tool arrived for quite some time. I began to think that I had been duped somehow and became quite frustrated. Then I found out why there was a delay....

The person I sent money to had spent a fair bit of time away from home dealing with some urgent family matters (dying relative). I didn't know this at the time but when I found out all sense of frustration left me and I felt bad for ever feeling the same way about them. Did I get my tool in the end? No, I have a refund on the way which I have every faith will arrive in due course. And, I am still ashamed in the way I felt and almost acted.

Should names be mentioned on a forum like this? ABSOLUTELY NOT! This is not a place to take up your grievence. This issue is between you and the other person (or persons). This is a forum for woodworking not mud-slinging.

It is my hope that Ted and the other moderators put an end to this thread before it gets very ugly.

My 2.5 cents

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Dilemma

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I hope that by posting this question that the person comes through. It sounds like you know of several other people who have had the same prolem with this person. that makes it worse. Now you make me wonder if I should trust any of you? well that's not going to happen I have dealt with to many of you shipping great treasures o other people as Christmas presents to let a bad apple scare me off. but as a seller of tools I would allways apreciate a heads up before I get took. It's one thing to post problems like JESIDA to the board but an indivudal is another story. there could be a reasonable explination. and there is also the problem of slander. you don't want to lose a tool and end up in cort.

Re: Answer this question...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Martin,I tried to send a private e-mail to you but it bounced. Could you ping me to make sure I have the correct address.JR

Trusting People

Todd Hughes

>When I used to do custom work making knives and axes for people i never took any payment till the work was done and I shipped it to them.I told them when you get it you send me payment.I only ever had one guy not pay and we are talking about 1,000's of items sold like this. Had a few dealers try not to pay till after they resold what they bought but after a strong letter or phone call they paid.At shows I often told the person that said they didn't have the money to buy the tool, knife or what ever to take it and send me payment when they got home.I would just give them my card and when they tried to show me thier drivers license or give me a card I would tell them I don't need that the only thing I need is to give them my address. I often sold stuff because of this policy and again never had any problims....On the other side, Once had a guy cheat me out of $50 on a car I sold, he basicaly told me I'm not going to get it and nothing I could do about it. Took me 6 months but I found out where the car was and drove all night though 4 states and had a BBQ.

I don't have anything to do with the case being talked about here, maybe that is how I can say so easly I don't think peoples names should be brought up. Will point out if you see one person that has problims all the time with many different people who seem to get along fine with others, you do have to get a little suspicious of why.....well thats my take....Todd

Re: Identity

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>So far as I know, it could be my name you would post if you were to post the name of this "rascal". There is no reason for anyone here to use a real name on this forum, or in any transaction, unless they are honest.

I can see getting absolutely addicted to old tools. I avoid this by realizing that my tools sooner or later have no meaning; I am their caretaker for life, and when I have no life I really am not going to be caring about my tools. I think there are things that are eternal and are of a much higher priority than tools. But some people do not have this belief; they see this life as the whole party, and some of those people tend to hoard things or experiences to try and make themselves happy, with no conscience as to how those things are obtained. I see myself as having no choice but to trust people until they prove themselves untrustworthy. So far as posting a name of an individual on the forum; how do you know you have the right name?

My view

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>As a maker and seller of some hand tools I have always worked on a trust basis. I essentially have offered "Old Tools Terms" where I send the tool after someone says they want it. After they decide they are happy with the tool, they send me payment or returnthe tools and I reimburse for return postage. I have yet to be burned by anyone. Having said that, I will go to prepaid orders for the general public when my website is up and running. People I know from the forums will continue to get my old terms.

I feel that commercial enterprises, whether small and part time like mine or large and full time, should take care of their problems themselves without resorting to posts on woodworking forums. The potential for libel, slander, and only partial airing of the "facts" is just too great. I'm always afraid of anecdotal and vague postings of this type since there is such a great opportunity for misinterpretation and a partial airing of the facts. It is possible that the person in question has a good explanation but is too intimidated by the long list of replies to come forward and state their case. Please be careful folks, this one could be really hard to judge accurately.

Re: Lets get this right?

Ernie Miller Topeka

>You and several others have been selling JUNK tools at an inflated price to some one who didn't know any better then they wise up order tools from you all and then don't pay for them. is this the story I'm hearing? The purchaser tried to recover some of his loss by not paying for tools that probably worth anything any how? So who is the worse persom the seller of the non payer? I challange the non payer to e-mail me private to tell there side of the story I will keep theye name private bet let the rest of the board know there thought on this matter. It seems like you may have hung some landry out that has a few skid marks. might be time to redo the wash.

The policy of WoodCentral

Ted Owen, Moderator

>WoodCentral is not the place for personal attack or disrespect. So long as a topic remains general in nature, it can be both legitimate and helpful. But if it degrades into efforts to identify the parties and reveal the particular facts to the reading public, it could damage WoodCentral and is inappropriate.

Best, Ted,

Moderator

Re: Lets get this right?

dave caudill

>Its a shame something like this has to happen but this is one side of the human condition that unfortunately shows up now and then. How it is handled after the initial transaction is whats important. I'll give a couple examples and that happened to me.

I bought a Stanley 603 for a very high end price from a well known dealer who said it was in perfect shape, no apologies. Upon arrival I checked it out and it was pretty nice but at closer inspection you could see it had been dropped on it heal which was dinged and the tote had a very tight crack. Was it missed by the dealer, possibly. But here is how it was handled. I sent it back with a pretty terse letter explaining my dissappointment and never heard from this person again with an apology or explanation. I also had to call after a fairly long period and ask them to credit my Visa card. Not my idea of the customer service I would hope for.

The other example is that I had bought a new plane and upon getting it back to the shop found it had a burr at the mouth that was putting a deep scratch in my wood. Took it back and they took care of it with an apology. I used it again and found that the shavings were backing up in the mouth because the chipbreaker had a blunt end. Took it back and again apology, fix. Finally took it back to the shop with same problem. By now I was pretty miffed and decided to take it back and get my money back. I did this and while there talked with the company owner and told him what was going on. I said lets look at a #3 as it has the same chipebreaker as the #5 1/4 which is what I had purchased. It ws worse than mine. He apologized and walked off asking his shop manager to get a meeting together with those responsible. I left and was a bit dissappointed but happy the owner had given me the time, talked with me and let me show him the problem.

I went back to the shop and a few hours later the floor manager showed up with a new plane problem fixed and GAVE it to me with a sincere apology that they were embarrassed and they wanted me to have it as a token of appreciation for the inconvenience they had caused me. While not expected a clear example of their committment to the customer and quality tools.

Also as most of us know Tom Law stopped saw sharpening a few months back. When Tom told me he was giving it up one of the main reasons for quitting was people asking him to do their saws and then not paying when services were rendered.

So if I were to comment I would say those that don't pay or return tools that they are unhappy with are doing us all a disservice. They need to realize they are navigating the same waters as the rest of us there are some sharks out there. But just because we may be wronged it does not give us the right to then retaliate. You should retaliate by not sending them any more business and let them know that. By keeping tools and not paying you are not only cheating, stealing from that dealer but you are also cheating the rest of us who in turn suffer because of higher prices and by dealers no longer willing to send tools out before payment. You need to think beyond yourself and your needs. This is a community and you have a responsibility to the rest of us.

Dave

Re: Hi Ernie

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I don't sell tools and never have. I have given some duplicates away to a few guys just starting out, but never asked for, or received any payment.

If there are disreputable sellers out there, I haven't met them yet. I buy alot of my tools from small tool dealers and have the utmost respect for those I deal with. I have had a few bad dealings on eb*y, but nothing to get crazy over.

Later

Jonathan

Well said Steve...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I've been in the same boat too. All ended well after a long frustrating wait.

No

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I would prefer that the Forum not be a place to complain about one another. I would not mind if complaints about companies were off limits too. But then I never read such posts if I know that is what they are about, so maybe my vote should not count.

Re: Former Dilemma Thread

Dan in Illinois

>I have been mostly a lurker but feel I should respond to this thread, as I would hate to see the friendly nature of information exchange that is the hallmark of WC altered in any way.

I also vote nay to accusations. The main reason is that I do not REALLY know any of you well enough on a personal level to know whether to believe these accusations. There are many of you whose opinions I have come to value and trust based on a pattern of consistently wise and mature postings. Postings by Sir William, Jon A, Christopher S, Jim S, Ernie, Moses, Bill T, Rob L, Thomas S, David S, Todd O and S, the good keepers of this site, among many others have become dear to me. If I have a chance to meet any of you, it would be well met indeed.

However, when someone posts a potentially damaging accusation of another in a personal dispute, I must question the motive and what the other side of the story may be, especially if the accuser is not directly involved. Actually, I would rather defer the opportunity to question at all and continue to enjoy sharing information with my fellow practitioners of this craft we all cherish.

Dan

Re: Dilemma

Charles Self

>"Very tough call! Me personally, I'd like to know who the chump is. Many of the readers on this forum put blind faith in the content, and a person who is not honest amoung friends is apt to not be honest in their content.

On the other hand, how applicable is this sort of info for this board?"

I'd guess the applicability comes from keeping others on the board from getting caught up in dealing with the cheat. Personally, I don't believe this kind of theft is a one time thing for most of the few who do it. I'd prefer knowing.