bench grinder decision

Re: bench grinder decision

Richard Gillespie

>I use a Delta 3/4 hp low speed grinder with 8"wheels.

Tormek

jim_reed@marietta

>After trying just about every sharpening system known to man, I bought a Tormek about five years ago. It was pretty pricy, but since then I have spent less than $10 for sharpening supplies (ebayed all of my stones!). All of my tools are sharp and all of SWMBOs kitchen knives are sharp. As a sharpening tool AND as an investment it cannot be beat.

Tormek owner! Ditto....

steve antonucci

>

Re: Tormek

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>If a Tormek is too rich for your blood, you might look at the Delta wet wheel grinder, a similar but simpler design that costs less. I suspect this is like everything else - pay more, get more - but I've found it a good, if slow, tool.

I have my uncle's Baldor bench grinder, and it's quite a tool. YOu can't tell it's running unless you look at the wheels - absolutely vibrationless.

Re: Tormek

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Tormek's are great tools, IF you hollow grind your blades. I don't use one because Japanese tools generally shouldn't be hollow ground.

Pam

Freewheelin' Baldors

David Barnett

>That's why I make Sharpie marks on my wheels - to keep accidents from happening, ON or OFF (once was enough - no injuries to me or the tool - but scared the hell outa me). Ambient noises, even very quiet ones, can mask what little motor sound it makes. Resting your hand on the motor casing won't necessarily tell you it's on, either. Turned off, especially with those OneWay wheel balancers, it takes quite a while to stop.

Mine's a 7" 1725rpm model, and yeah, it's been worth every penny. To me, anyway.

Re: bench grinder decision

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Have a look around for a good quality industrial one used. Failing that a good Delta 8" grinder that turns slow 1725rpm. Since you want to remove stock quickly to avoid burning I keep a 36 grit regular coarse stone and a white cool grinding stone of 80 grit. Most of the time I take stuff to work to do it on the industrial grinder that runs super smooth.

Another ditto

Ray Newman

>

Re: Tormek

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Jim,

I'm interested in Tormek and would appreciate it if you would describe a bit more how the stones and the Tormek fit together into a system. For example, if we just talk for a moment about plane blades and chisels (and I understand the Tormek will do MUCH more), there's (1) back flattening, (2) putting on a new primary bevel, (3) honing to a final edge. What does the Tormek do, and what do the stones do?

On gouges, can you both shape the bevel, and hone to a final edge, or are these jobs split between Tormek and stones?

Do you get water splashing?

Thanks in advance for your guidance,

Wiley

Re: Tormek *LINK*

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>In the words of Lyn Mangiameli:

"It's greatest draw back for flat blades is that it will not refine the edge sufficiently for fine hand tool usage, thus you usually need a couple of waterstones to take the edge to final preparation."

The Tormek does a lot of things, but producing a very fine edge on chisel and plane blades is not one of them. (and, yes, I have a Tormek)

Here is Lyn's original message, in context:


Sharpening Systems

My system

jim_reed@marietta

>The Tormek doc says you can flaten backs on the side of the wheel. That works for me, but it is hard to control and takes off alot of steel fast. I prefer to use SS to flaten backs. Tormek also has leather wheel to use as strop. I must confess that I have never used it. I remove wire with sandpaper. For gouges, you need the gouge attachment. It takes awhile to get the initial fingernail, but touch ups are pretty quick.

Re: Tormek

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Don,

Thanks! Actually I had read Lyn's experiences and judgment on the matter, and as always he makes a lot of sense. But then, when I see 4 testimonials in a row on the high value people place on these machines, it makes me want to take another look. I was hoping to get some nuts and bolts as to how folks actually combine Tormek and stones (or whatever) to (1) flatten backs, (2) redo primary bevel, (3) hone.

Wiley

Re: Tormek

joel

>In 1975 I bought a $50 6" 3000 RPM grinder

For the first 5 years of my doing woodwork I was looking for the perfect grinder as I could not get consistent bevels and I burned irons.

Then I studied cabinetry, learned to use a grinder and no longer burned irons but I was taught using a jig and I have lots of trouble adjusting the irons in the jig (the LV one) and never got consistent results. I was always hesiteant about grinding and only did it as a last result. I was seriously tempted to get a tormek because of the jigs (which are brilliant) What stopped me is how slow they work.

Then about a year or so ago Barry Iles taught me how to free hand grind. and now I can walk up to the same grinder I bought almost 30 years ago, and have a perfect even bevel in about a minute (less for a thin blades), It took practice, The technique is pretty simple, set the rest, use a dressed wheel with a very slight crown, feel the tempature of the blade, practice.

but now I grind everything in sight - even if there is still a little hollow left - just to save honing time. and it saves me oddles of time.

I don't know why I ever considered getting a slow speed grinder or a Tormek.

My point is most of the expensive gadgets around are trading off technology and time for practice. Nothing wrong with that - I drive an automatic transmission. But a person who can drive a stick, and therefore can drive any car or truck has a lot more flexibityty on what they can drive. learning how to do it the hard way gives me tons of flexibility, and tons of speed.

Tormek Technique

Steve Elliott

>I use my Tormek to grind the primary bevel. I haven't tried flattening blade backs on the side of the stone, but I do sometimes use the face of the stone to take down the hump in the center of a blade that needs serious flattening.

I've never been satisfied with the final edge I get off of the Tormek, mainly because it isn't guaranteed to be straight. While the jigging system holds the angle constant, it doesn't tend to remove only from the high spots. As a wide plane blade is moved back and forth across the stone the blade projects over the edge of the stone on one side or the other. Pausing too long in one place will remove too much metal there. Even with my most careful technique, I find the edges of the blade usually end up projecting a little too far, giving a slight concave shape to the edge.

A blade that has been honed on a flat waterstone has a straight edge, and I leave that edge there while grinding up to just behind it. Then it only takes a little bit of honing to have a sharp, straight edge.

For putting a slight camber on a blade, I use the Tormek toolrest (SVD-110). It's easy to set it to the right angle, and I can tip the blade sideways a little to remove metal from the corners of the blade.

Despite my criticisms, I really like my Tormek as a grinder. It's easy to set up, allows me control over where I'm grinding, and lets me relax while I grind because I know I won't overheat a valuable blade.

Re: Tormek & others

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>FWIW, the first power sharpener I had was a Tormek, it was originally a great disappointment to me for it was slow, not worth a darn for blade backs (being both slow and lacking any means of precise control of placement) and having a plane blade jig that was fussy to set up and still lacked good repeatability.

Then I added a 8 inch Baldor low speed dry grinder (but no jigging system), It was a big and very expensive means to blast away steel quickly and perform non sharpening related grinding.

Then I added the LV NUSS because I remained unhappy with the Tormek's plane/chisel blade jig and its failure to provide the finest grinds necessary for hand tools. Of course I quickly had to add an extra pair of platters to take finer abrasive disks (5 and .5 micron) than the NUSS offered.

Then I added the NUSS belt sander option which did most of my high speed metal removal for sharpening, and offered a flat grind unavailable from the Baldor 8 inch round wheels. With a leather belt, it also made for a great touchup powered strop.

Then I sold off the Baldor because the combination of the giant NUSS and big Baldor just used up way too much space in my limited work area and to a great extent was reduntant with the combined NUSS and Tormek

Then I purchased the cheapest, smallest, 6 inch high speed Delta, as I found I still had a need for a blast away grinder for basic metal shaping tasks.

Then I added the LV QPSS, which is so much quieter, smaller, and more refined than the NUSS.

And finally I bit the space bullet and have added a big 8 inch, 90 pound Delta low speed grinder, and a full jigging system to speed up setting initial geometry on turning tools.

What do I find now:

No power system I have is truly adequate for flattening backs (so thus I have a full waterstone system almost exclusively dedicated to flattening and maintaining backs).

I love having the new 8 inch Delta grinder. Set up properly with good wheels and the latest jigging systems, it has become a truly useful addition to the other systems and has largely replaced the verticle belt sanders (yes, there is also a second one of those taking up space) for quick, rough establishment of geometry and major steel removal.

So now I find I use the Tormek, the QPSS, and the 8 inch Delta about equally in time, though for decidedly different tasks. The Delta as above, the Tormek for edge maintainance of almost all turning tools, and the QPSS for all flat blades (I still have the NUSS, but use it almost exclusivey for its belt sander function, along with its power take off which allows me to mount a green charged buffing wheel I use to polish and clean gouge flutes). But alas, I have yet to have found any acceptable, precision controled means to deal with backs using powered equipment, though when I finally get the plane article out, I'm going to work on experimenting with a tower jigging system that MAY allow for controlable back flattening on the QPSS & NUSS.

Some quick thoughts on the pleasantness...

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>of the various grinders.

For me, this factor plays a significant role in my use of sharpening systems.

When time is not an issue (thought time can sometimes become a major issue for geometry changes on bigger tools), there is no doubt for me that the Tormek is the most pleasant sharpener to use. It is almost relaxing in the low pitched, low frequency rhythmic noise it makes. I don't have to worry about hurting myself on it, or having a wheel explode. There are no particles of steel and grit strewn out from it that can end up in my eyes or lungs. It won't burn my tools, which also means I don't ever burn my fingers.

The QPSS comes second, but it is definitely a ways behind the Tormek. It is most pleasantly quiet (perhaps even more so than the Tormek), but does throw particles in the air (though more along a more horizontal band than a wheel grinder, thus one's eyes and lungs are less exposed). It can be downright dangerous if you lose hold of a blade when attempting to use the QPSS (or NUSS) for flattening. I have some deep scars in the wall behind my NUSS when I have lost control of several block plane blades (yah, I'm a slow learner) which were rocketed from the spinning platter. Still, there are no high speed wheels potentially to disintegrate and it would be very hard to get any of your anatomy very seriously caught up in it. The grip you use to control the blade in its carraige also causes you to act as a temperature control for the blade. This is fairly effective in preventing the blade from overheating, but for major extended grinding tasks, I find my fingers get very weary of being so constantly exposed to the heat. So, overall, I find the QPSS pleasant to use, but not so much as the Tormek.

My small HS Delta is noisy, vibrates a lot, strews particles into the air, heats up my tools so that I am regularly getting mild burns from it, and generally just isn't very easy to use. While I never need to wear respiratory or eye protection with the Tormek and often don't with the QPSS, I definetely need to with the small Delta.

My big Delta is remarkably smooth and even rather quiet. Still, the eye and respiratory issues are real and one should never be operating a dry grinder like this without such protection. Frankly, it is just so much easier to see what is happening at the edge if one doesn't have another layer of plastic or two between you and the blade edge (this is counterbalanced slightly by the nice lamps the Delta grinder come with, that does a fairly good job illuminating the cutting edge). I also end up getting occasional burns off this tool as well, but not so much as with the smaller one. But woe unto me if I ever get anything caught or wrapped up in this high HP, high mass grinder. Lots of damage will be done before it ever comes to a stop.

These are considerations mostly incidental to the units functional role of edge maintenance, but they do factor into the experience of using the tool.

Re: Tormek

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, Florida

>In the time since I got my Tormek, my fine woodworking has pretty much come to a halt. I have been mostly doing outdoor or rough carpentry work. (honey-do list, etc.) Because of this, the Tormek has been ok for my carpentry chisels (read: Stanley plastic, etc.). I also use it for kitchen knives, btw.

I think that many folks out there hate sharpening, and/or do not have an adequate set of stones, or have not investigated ScareySharp, or whatever, and are used to having quite dull tools. Someone who is in that category will find a profound improvement by using the Tormek. But, it only sharpens to roughly 1000-grit. One can then use the leather wheel to polish the edge with the 1000-grit scratches (and take off the wire edge/burr), but you can buff forever and not remove the 1000-grit roughness. SWMBO bought me a nice microscope last year, and what is happening with chisel edges is quite clear when I use the scope.

Withing the realm of chisels and plane blades, the tormek will set up a nice hollow edge, and if I need to go further (for fine work), I go to 2K/4K/8K stones. This is very easy to do, and goes fast because of the hollow grind. BTW, it does not splash you! As Lyn wrote, one thing about the Tormek: it is very safe.

I guess the bottom line, is how sharp to you want the edge?

I hope that this is of help.

get a square edge belt grinder

George Bustamante

>get a square edge belt grinder from bader, wilton, or beaumont. They are really nice: http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/grinder.html

Two words...

Bob Hackett

>Burr King.THE top of the line belt sanding machine.If you don`t know what I`m talking about just go visit anyone who makes knives for a living.

These metal eating machines combine unbelievable hogging ability with incredible finesse.The same machine is used to hollow grind a blade and then to sharpen it,after a belt change.They are one of the most versatile sanding machines going with many different folks making specialty attachments to do just about anything.

For those with ultra deep pockets,it`s the only way to go.They start at alittle over $1000.What did your last your last stationary power tool cost?

Mainely,Bob

Re: Two words...

George Bustamante

>Yep,

Them too!

George

Much thanks to Jim, Steve, Lyn, Joel, and Don

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>for the detailed descriptions of Tormek performance and pleasantness (an excellent term, indeed!). It's interesting how much the people who own Tormeks like them.

Wiley

I like it's name...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Burr King, Yea baby!