Gouge sharpening question

Re: Gouge sharpening question

paul womack

>50% off at a clearance sale!

Nice going!

In a book by Charles Haywood he speaks of sharpening carving gouges on both sides (a so-called knife bevel). The effect of the inner (concave side) bevel is to make the total bevel steeper (e.g. a 10 degree inside bevel make the cutting edge 10 degrees steeper).

This makes the bevel stronger, but also makes it cut less sweetly. But there's method to his madness.

He ALSO advocates a low bevel angle on the outside (say 20 degrees). This low angle improves access with the gouge, allowing power applied on the handle to be more inline with the cutting edge.

But a "pure" 20 degree bevel would be too weak. So the inside bevel strengthens (thickens) the net bevel (to a perfectly moderate 30 degrees)

The simple "knife edge" form also allows stropping (the carvers favourite keep-it-sharp) technique to be used on both inside and outside, since you're not trying to keep the face dead flat, which you normally do with carpenters gouges.

Disclaimer:This is all book-learnin' from me, since I don't carve,

BugBear

Re: Gouge sharpening question

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>If you are going to start sharpening expensive tools, I heartily recommend Leonard Lee's sharpening book. Its a bit academic. As I recall he even says in there, "if you didn't understand the last paragraph, go back and read it again until you do!" (or something to that effect).

He's right and its worth it. As I recall, wrt gouge sharpening, Lee advocates swarfing the bezel so the wood sees a similar bevel angle across the cut.

I'm no carver and maybe a real carver would say this is all hooey. But it made sense to me.

I have some nice addis gouges that need sharpening and I'd love to hear some experienced carvers' take on Lee's book.

"Swarfing the bezel?"

Greg B�tit, Vergennes, VT

>I'm OK with the bezel part, but swarfing is something I'm not familiar with. M-W.com says swarf is file dust, but its etymology is "Old English "sweorfan"- to file away..." Can you maybe elaborate on this so I can visualize what this is?

Greg -who speaks New English, as in VT-ME-NH-MA-CT-RI. Ayup.

Re: Gouge sharpening question

Dan Donaldson

>If you put a small bevel on the inside of the gouge, it makes it easier to control in a cut. One with no inside bevel has a tendency to dive into the wood, and it is more difficult to come up out of a cut. The small inside bevel allows you to control the depth of cut by varying the angle of the tool. (I am a very beginning carver, but this advice came from Lee Grindinger, and it does help)

Re: Gouge sharpening question

Chris Knight

>Having just spent three days on a carving course (and starting from -273 deg K ) I can confidently state you do need a bevel on the inside. Use a slipstone to create it. The angle will be whatever (low) angle you can achieve whilst holding the blade of the gouge between the fingers and thumb of one hand (finger and thumb just poking above the edge to form "fences" which stop you wasting the corners of the gouge) You will find that in practice this will be about ten to fifteen degrees if the slipstone is to clear the handle and probably also your pinkie which in all likelihood you will find needs to wrap around the front of the gouge.

Who'd you study with, Chris?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Lee's "Sharpening" help needed

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Greg,

Its probably not a word. A "swarfing" surface is a twisting one. In this case, and as I recall, the bevel angle in the center of the gouge should be ground higher than the edges. (Boy I hope I got this right) I think Lee was advocating grinding say 25 degrees in the center of the edge with no back bevel. As you move from the center toward the edges of the gouge, you increasingly create back bevel and decrease the bezel angle (to 18 degrees say). Is that right?

It may be that the total angle (bezel + back bevel) remains constant, the bezel is swarfing or twisting relative to the shape of the gouge.

Okay, so I don't understand it. Aren't you basically changing the effective sweep of the gouge? My books are all put away so I can't look it up. Can someone else help?

One other thing that Lee says is that carving gouges should be ground straight across or even concave (in profile). Many old gouges I have are ground with slight thumbnail shapes. This may be for the reason Lee was discussing regarding the effective bezel angles. Anyway, I think I see Lee's point, I've tried it, and I like it.

I hope instead of listening to me, you read the book. I'm doing a poor job of paraphrasing.

Adam

Re: Lee's "Sharpening" help needed

Greg B�tit, Vergennes, VT

>Thanks for taking the time Adam. I'll take your advice and consult the book. I've seen it referred to enough around here to know that it will be time well spent.

Your comments about the gouge profile reminded me of someone on a chair makers forum recommending grinding the gouge so that the sides actually lead the bottom of the gouge in the cut. He had learned this trick from an experienced carver. The discussion was about the small gouge used to cut the gutter that separates the saddle part of the Windsor chair's seat from the spindle deck.

Thanks again,

Greg

Re: Gouge sharpening question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>The stronger the sweep, the more problem you will have with such a strategy. It's ok to put a back bevel at the center of the curve, but you can't get away with carrying it all the way to the sides. Think about it: Where is the chip going to go, if it is being compressed inwards from both sides? This isn't important on a #3, but by the time you get to a #11, it won't cut anything but basswood without a struggle.

Re: Gouge sharpening question

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Frank I have bought about 50 carving chisels in the last year. It has tanken me about 100 hours to get most of them sharp. If you can find a few round metal files a great pair of gloves to avoid getting stabbed I use the rubber coated garden gloves from LV. I also use my older King stones because if they get scratched up and nasty it doesn't matter. I have use a few short pieces of pipe that I have collected the aluminum smooth pipe is the best and the rest can be made relatively smooth with a sander it serves great for in channel gouges by using the PSA backed sandpaper. It's quite a ordeal to make new chisels ready to carve with. Just need to learn how to carve.

Re: Gouge sharpening question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Hmmmm.... The more I think about it, and also after messing around in the shop with some incanel pattermakers gouges and a #11 carver's gouge, with Pfeil factory bevels, the more I don't like the advise I just gave you. It is easier to crush the chip that is being removed than the outside walls of the cut. Therefore, a gouge with a strong sweep would benefit a very small exterior bevel on the sides, and therefore needs a larger inside bevel. At the center of the curve, however, this doesn't work, except for cylindrically shaped channels, because you have to be able to cut down into the wood and then drop the handle to bring the cut back out again. All is compromise, however, as the flatter the outside bevel on the sides, the more difficult it is to turn the gouge sideways while in a cut. Maybe the impossibility of the whole thing is what makes # 10 and #11 sweep gouges much less common than #3 through #6.

Beveling only the inside only works for patternmakers incanel gouges, which will cut shapes that only an ironmonger would love.

Re: Gouge sharpening question

Frank D. in Montreal

>Thanks Adam,

I already have what seems like a good book, by William Wheeler and Charles Hayward, and they suggest putting a small bevel on the inside, but don't give too many details. I'm also not one to run off and do what the first book tells me. I'll be getting Lee's book for sure (I'll be placing a gardening order at Lee Valley for my wife; as usual I'll run up to my shop with the box and bring down the leftovers :) ).

Frank

Re: Gouge sharpening question

Frank D. in Montreal

>Thank you Mr. William,

I'm no ironmonger, but I think I uderstood most of what you said. I'll print out your advice and use it as a bookmark in my carving books (to read leter on, of course...). The Impossibility of the whole thing sounds a bit daunting, reminds me a bit of my studies in philosophy! But I've gotten along pretty well with sharpening until now (I'm the guy who dropped a razor-sharp scrub blade on his leg--and now I'm bragging about it :) ).

Thanks again,

Frank

Thanks everyone,

Frank D. in Montreal

>your advice is well-appreciated. I'm sure I'll get along fine with all the feedback I've gotten.

Regards,

Frank

Re: Gouge sharpening question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>My reference to "ironmonger" only meant that the common use for incanal gouges is by patternmakers, for cutting fillets when making patterns for sand casting molds for pouring metal into. You would find a fillet, for example, at the inside corner of the body of a bench plane, between the side and the bottom. Unlike a dovetailed smoother, cast metal pieces should not have any sharp inside corners, because they are a good place for stress cracks to start. They're just not as artistic as less constrained curves that move in several directions at once.

Re: Gouge sharpening question

Frank D. in Montreal

>William, that was just my lame attempt at humor...I figured you were referring to metal workers, and I knew you wouldn't disparage them on this forum. I'm glad you explained, though; I learned a little more about their work.

Re: Who'd you study with, Chris? *LINK*

Chris Knight

>Pam,

I spent three great days with Chris Pye who is both a terrific carver and a very inspirational teacher.

Chris


http://www.chrispye-woodcarving.com/index.html

Re: Gouge sharpening question

paul womack

> I have bought about 50 carving chisels in the last year.

Unless you've been lucky, that's taken a mighty pile 'o' dollars.

I don't know about the US side, but here in the UK there are two well though of carvers that write books.

Ian Norbury is wonderful:

http://carverscompanion.com/Ezine/Vol4Issue6/RMace/RMace.html

And

here's a Wood Central review

And Chris Pye has done a lot of writing and teaching:

book listing

BugBear

Re: Who'd you study with, Chris?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>That must have been wonderful. Just a bit of drooling...

Pam

Re: Who'd you study with, Chris?

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Chris, where did you take the course? I've seriously toyed around with the idea of combining a holiday in England with a Chris Pye course.

Taking the same course in the States just doesn't have the same appeal to me.

Re: Who'd you study with, Chris?

Chris Knight

>Chris has his house and workshop in a place (Ewyas Harold) on the Welsh borders near the Brecon beacons. It is a great area for a holiday with walking (Wye Valley, the hills etc), culture (eg in Hereford you can see the Mappa Mundi in the cathedral there).

Chris does come periodically to the USA (I guess you know that from your remark) but he seems to do classes rather than the one on one I had with him

Chris