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Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

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Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#1

Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I am very far from being an expert here, but there have been a few recent queries about backsaws from novices like myself, and I thought that a few observations may help in this regard. It is also intended as a follow up to a query of my own about a month ago (�LN dovetail vs gent saws - your opinions please�).

I have been using Western backsaws for a few months now. For several years I had relied on Japanese Dozuki and Ryoba Z brand saws. These are easy to cut accurately with and produce fine cuts � often so glassy clean that further finishing seems unnecessary. However I work mostly in hardwoods, such as jarrah and karri, and these saws are better suited to soft timbers. The cost of replacing blades owing to frequent broken teeth was becoming expensive.

Over the past year I have acquired a few Western tenon and dovetail saws. Definitely made a few mistakes along the way. Well, it�s a learning curve. I live in Old Tool Hell and, other than a new saw, decent vintage saws are really only available via eBay, and it is sometimes very difficult to know what you are getting. At first I managed to buy a couple of crappy, pitted and worthless tenon saws that would not even make reasonable scrapers. One time I thought I scored with a beautiful 1880-ish brass-backed-split-nutted English dovetail saw. It had a great balance in the hand. Unfortunately, when it came to sharpening time I discovered a crack in the blade.

One good, inexpensive buy was an 8� John Cotterill dovetail saw. I had this one professionally sharpened (15 tpi rip), but found it would not cut straight and left behind a kerf as wide as the Queen Mary's wake. So I progressively filed off the set to improve this. Too much so. Well it certainly cut straight after this [:)], but just became bound in the kerf [:(].

It was clearly time to bite the bullet and buy a decent dovetail saw. After some consultation with the gang on this Forum over the merits of the LN gent vs pistol grip saws, I decided to try out a 8� Crown gent saw (17 tpi rip). This surprised me by cutting beautifully straight right out of the box ..uh.. plastic bag. Why a gent saw? Because I thought the action would be similar to a Japanese saw. But it did not work for me when cutting dovetails in hardwood. The control is not the same as when pulling a Japanese saw towards oneself. Pushing seems to need more force, more than a gent saw can offer ergodynamically. I still like the Crown for delicate, shallow cuts. Perhaps I will use it more as I gain more experience with it.

My latest purchase is a 9� LN Independence dovetail saw (thanks Lynndy!). God, this is one beautifully made saw! I love the balance, and it cuts straight as a die. I must put part of the blame on Rob Cosman for his two great videos on dovetails which swayed me. The only thing that I don�t like about it that it feels hard to get started. Adjusting the cutting angle does help, but it is just not in the same class as the average Jap saw in this area. Once going, however, it is a dream. The irony is, shortly after the LN came to stay, I reset the John Cotterill (with the smallest set possible on my saw set), and it now cuts so smoothly, much more so that the LN. Where the LN scores is that it cuts much more aggressively, taking half the number of strokes for the same depth of cut. I think the moral of the story here is that a properly set up vintage saw will cut as well as a top-drawer new saw.

Along the way I also managed to find two decent tenon saw, definite keepers: a 14� (cross-cut) Nurse & Co and a 12� (rip cut) Disston.

I�ve added a picture of these below (L to R: Nurse & Co, Disston, LN, John Cotterill, Crown).

Regards from Perth

Derek


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Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#2

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Thanks for a very informative post, Derek!

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#3

Re: Starting the LN DT

Dave Mount, northeastern MN

>Derek--

I had the same issue with my LN when I got it. You certainly find out quickly that trying to draw backward won't work! My solution is to start with a relatively fast (meaning speed of the stroke) stroke with no pressure whatsoever, using my thumb or fingernail to position the saw. Usually it starts without a problem then. I will confess, though, that on a couple occasions I got a set of "divots" started that I simply couldn't get past, and grabbed a dozuki to get rid of them so I could start again.

Overall, I prefer the Western saws for dovetails, mostly because I feel I can cut more agressively, and the LN tracks so well, it's a dream. Just my opinion, lots of folks might disagree. My only complaint is that the L-N handle is just about 1/4" too short for my large hands. I contact them about it and they said they'd make a special handle (for a price, of course), but I haven't gotten my **** together to get that ordered.

And I also don't like gents saws at all for DTs. Only thing I would use one for is delicate trimming cuts, but for that, the Japanese saws are better anyway. My gents saw is collecting dust somewhere, not even sure where.

Dave

Dave Mount, Two Harbors, MN

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#4

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Remember Derek, that LN is Made in Maine.

Don't mind me while I thump my chest abit alright, but Maine is my homestate and by Goodness I don't give a hoot what anybody says I'm damn proud of the fact that LN's are from Maine.

Bloddy 'ell, you're as bad to me as Angus is to you. Now I'm the one running amok in the village, only I'm yelling LN's Made in Maine, LN's Made in Maine. ;~)

Todd O.

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#5

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>I find gent's saws helpful for miscellaneous small cutting in the shop, but I agree that I have not found a way to hold them that allows the control of a regular saw handle.

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#6

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

RJ Whelan

>Bill and Others ... I have a friend who cuts his DT's by sitting on the bench with his legs hanging off the edge; he puts the piece being cut under his thigh (Japanese clamp) and saws with a Gent's saw straight up and down (picture a maiden churning butter). I tried this position - uncomfortable in the extreme.

I guess it all depends on how you learn ... rj

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#7

more on LN starting

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>When we teach a dovetail class about everyone has problems starting the LN. I would add one additional helpful hint and in addition to the bold forward starting stroke you mentioned. I take a bit of weight off the saw on the first forward stroke. I am not particularly talented at sawing, but in short order I learned to reliably start the saw even in something soft like poplar. If you get a divit (been there!) taking the weight off will enable the saw to sart even on the divited surface.

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#8

Issues of control

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>One of the obvious differences in control when comparing a Western and a Jap back saw is that pushing requires fixing the timber in a vise, while pulling does not. I am not sure if this is just a reflection of my sawing action (because I am still very used to a pull saw), or whether it is inherent in the action of the saw itself, the size and number of teeth, or the degree of set. I know that Japanese woodworkers tend to use their body to anchor the timber. I do feel that one achieves more control with pulling than with pushing.

The other area of control is that it is easier to see the line when cutting with a push. With a pull cut the sawdust tends to obscure the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#9

Re: Issues of control

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Derek,

Thanks for your interesting post. I use both style saws too. I started out with Japanese saws also, but now I use my Japanese saws only for softwoods and my western style saws for hardwoods. Another difference in the two styles of sawing is the height of the workpiece. Japanese saws work better when the piece is kept lower, so the elbow can be used as a pivot and less the shoulder (this for dozukis, at least). When I start my dovetail or tenon saw I find keeping the tip high (60 degree angle or even more; I push the saw forward and let the tip rise as the cut is made) helps for the first stroke. Japanese saws, I find, are best started almost flat.

But you know what I always say: I'm no expert ;)

Thanks again,

Frank

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#10

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

paul womack

>I had this one professionally sharpened (15 tpi rip), but found it would not cut straight and left behind a kerf as wide as the Queen Mary's wake.

Despite frequent mis-use "professional" does NOT mean excellent- it just means you gotta' pay.

That Nurse saw looks to have a most comfortable handle, and the little jeweller's saw (bottom right driveby) looks really sweet!

And, you're right, assuming a DT saw has a comfortable handle and a straight blade, "correct filing" will make it an excellent tool.

"Fit and finish" are nice to have and admire, but not really germaine to performance.

BugBear

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#11

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Bugbear (and all)

The C.Nurse & Co. (14" blade, 11 tpi, set cross cut) is a stunner. Definitely one of my better purchases. I can say the same for the Disston (12" blade, 13 tpi, set rip). While I have done some mild cleaning, both are "as is", in original condition and sharpness. And both cut like a hot knife through butter.

I'd like to find out more about the Nurse. You may know something as it is UK in origin. I looked through the Old Tools archives, but there was nothing of historical note. I recall a very favourable comment made by Todd Hughes. The Disston has a clear etch (Keystone #5) and, as far as I can ascertain, probably dates around 1931-40. I have included a pic of this below and welcome any information.

The bottom line is they are very nice to use and I can only imagine them to be the equal - or better - of a new LN.

I searched a while for an old jeweller's saw (instead of buying a new one locally). This one is stamped L.Hugoniot-Tissot.

OK, here is the galling part. They were all sourced from the UK. I'm sorry.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#12

Re: Nurse - ALF!?

paul womack

>IIRC there is a planemaker called Nurse. Perhaps Goodman knows more...

Herewith some OLDTOOLS rambling:

Thread 1


Todd trying to find 'em

They may well have extended their line of sales with bought in tools, branded appropriately by the manufacturer.

Even my local Town's hardware store had their own branded saws.

BugBear

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#13

Re: Nurse - ALF!?

Alice Frampton, UK

>The links for The Porch pretty much sum up all the relevant info in British Planemakers on C Nurse. It does seem to suggest that an awful lot of the tools they "made" were simply re-badged and that the plane-making business was their only real manufacturing. I don't have any info on sawmakers at all, and it's a constant source of frustration. It'd be nice to have a tool by Nurse myself - not only did I use to live fairly near the site of their premises (so it'd be sorta cool to have one) but the "Invicta" tradmark features a rearing horse. In the immortal words of Todd H, "I sorta collect tools with animal trademarks" ;~)

Sorry, no help at all :~(

Cheers, Alf

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#14

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

joel

>Nurse was a fairly large London hardware store. Not as big as either Melhuish or Tyzak but well respected.

Like both of these companies (and basically everyone else) they private labeled a lot of tools. They did make planes and even patented a adjuster a good 20 years before Norris.

THeir big speciality seems to be as an early importer of American tools, Stanley and others feature prominently in their catalog.

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longish).

#15

Re: Western backsaws: my experience so far (longis

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>assuming a DT saw has a comfortable handle and a straight blade, "correct filing" will make it an excellent tool.


I think that one might want to add to that list a blade made of adequate steel, and of the proper thickness.

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