How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws?

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws?

Dan Donaldson

>I hold mine (and my straight handled dovetail saw) in my hand with fingers wrapped around the handle and my thumb on top. I have read in other threads of people that put their finger along the side, but that is uncomfortable for me. I think that the main thing is to find a grip that allows you to hold the saw without having to strain or contort your hand or arm. That will probably vary from person to person. A comfortable grip will allow you to concentrate on the saw and the line rather than thinking about the saw itself.

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws? (long)

Mitch

>Howard,

I'm no expert, but I had a breakthrough recently in technique for using a Japanese rip saw. I hold it with my right index finger on top but I often change my grip for comfort. I've learned the important thing is not to hold the saw with too firm a grip.

The other day I was ripping a 4' long piece of 2'-thick maple and having a terrible time making a cut anywhere near 90 degrees. After lots of trial and lots of error, I realized that the more perpendicular I was holding the saw, the less control I had with making a 90 degree cut. I could follow the line on top of the board, but on the underside of the board I was veering way off the mark. Also, I was experimenting with moving from the right end of the board to the left and moving from the left end to the right.

Finally, I discovered that I was having the most success making a square cut by holding the blade at a low angle to the board. I found that holding the blade closer to parallel to the board keeps the LENGTH of the blade in the kerf during the cut so that it registers itself over its whole length. When I was holding the saw perpendicular to the board, I only had the WIDTH of the blade to register itself.

Using the full length of the blade and making long, smooth strokes helped a lot! Again, I'm a beginner. I'd be interested to hear what more experienced woodworkers think of this technique.

Thanks!

Mitch

For dozuki, an isoceles stance...

David Barnett

>...works best for me. The work is held as highly as possible without causing problems with flexing, sometimes sandwiched between other boards for support. Facing forward, center of mass evenly distributed over slightly bent knees, torso leaning forward so you can feel the weight on the balls of both feet, both arms forward, elbows and shoulders not locked, but slightly flexed, just above sternum, left hand in front of the right, thumbs on top, two middle fingers of each hand curled around the handle, indexes and pinkies not involved, third finger of the right hand touching the fourth of the left, just enough grip to keep it in my hands. Sighting down the spine of the saw, the stroke is straight back bending only the wrists and elbows and ending about 3" from the chest.

That should've been 'isosceles', of course.

David Barnett

>

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws?

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I don't like japanese hand saws. I don' know for sure.

But I think they are intended to be held just like japanese swords. I'll try to describe, but if you type "kendo" into a search engine, you may get a better answer.

The lower hand (my left) is like a fist. The bottom of this hand is flush with the bottom of the saw. This hand sort of pulls. The wrist is rotated so the back of the hand is at a 45 degree angle with respect to the wrist.

The upper hand is more relaxed, index finger points naturally, more directly forward than aligned with the handle. The bottom two fingers grip tightly, index finger points and the middle finger "floats". There is a looseness to this hand's grip. The upper hand should be pretty far away from the lower.

If you can't find anything on this on the internet and you don't know any kendo-ists (or kendoka), take a look at star wars movies. Pretty sure the light saber stuff was all loosely based on kendo. As I recall, their grips looked about right.

I'm fairly certain that the japanese see all of this stuff as the same. Coincidentally, western traditions have similarities, not so much with weapons, but saw and plane grips are similar.

Adam

I think it was Mark Grable

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>who once told me to hold a Japanese saw with my index finger on top. It is a mystery to me exactly what this does, but it does seem to work much better than a straight 'handshake' grip.

Maybe it keeps you from rotating your hand or moving your elbow to the side as you move through the stroke. A key thing you're trying to do is to let the saw do the work. Focus on keeping the saw moving smoothly in the kerf. Even a saw with almost no set will move smoothly in the kerf if your arm motion stays in the same plane, and you're not rotating your hand. When sawing, I like to visualize the sides of the saw and where they are in the kerf.

It's an old maxim, but forever true with respect to saws and hammers--let the tool do the work. You're just assisting.

Wiley

Re: I think it was Mark Grable *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>And here is Mark's practice regimen.

Pam


Mark's practice set

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I use a tennis type grip, make sure to adjust the position until my elbow movement shows no body-relative variation. Meaning that it moves only front to back with a small vertical displacement due to its elbowness. How's that for obfuscation? You may also want to pick up a copy of Odate-san's "Japanese Tools...."

Pam

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws? (long)

Tim of San Leandro

>"I found that holding the blade closer to parallel to the board keeps the LENGTH of the blade in the kerf during the cut so that it registers itself over its whole length. When I was holding the saw perpendicular to the board, I only had the WIDTH of the blade to register itself. "

I understand your reasoning....but it doesn't work well for me. First....the kerf is wider than the blade. Even on a japanese saw, there is some set to the teeth...otherwise you'd never be able to saw 2 inch thick plank. I'm a neophyte so here is my recent experience with hand ripping using a ryoba:

1. When ripping, grain direction makes a difference to me. When the teeth are cutting with the grain, I find it easier to track straight and avoid vibration.

2. Use the appropriate size saw......and likewise, find the "sweet" spot angle for sawing. For a 2 inch thick board, I think a 300 or 330 mm saw is in order....

3. I use an arcing stroke....not a straight, parallel to the teeth stroke. The arc isn't a small, sharp arc but just a very light arc....large diameter arc.

4. Save some of those thin cutoffs that appear worthless. They make for good wedges when ripping. And I also have to employ a bit tape since I cannot saw entirely vibration free.

5. hold the saw lightly. As many others have already said...the saw does the cutting, not you. We merely guide the saw.

6. I've found that concentrating on keeping the handle completely in the plane of the cut line is easier than trying to keep the blade in that same plane.

Tim

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws?

Rob Lee

>Howard -

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

Pay attention to your stance, where you grip, and how you grip....

The analogy for stance that I like is that of a shooting pool.... I stand an arm's length away from the cut, hold well back on the handle, and have my right index finger pointed along the right side of the handle (not on top). More elbow action than shoulder, and not much downward pressure.

Really - it's about control, comfort, and repeatability...something different may work for you - just get used to doing it the same way!

Cheers -

Rob

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws?

Robert Tarr

>I just flipped through two of Toshio Odate's books and I notice he uses all of the grips mentioned above. One thing I noticed, is that he uses the finger down the spine (or better said, on top of the handle) for a dozuki and an almost parallel to the board, saw stroke. He uses the sword approach for the large resaws (don't know what that one is called) and when when he used the ryoba double handed. When he uses the ryoba one handed, he always has his thumb on top and well back on the handle. I also has a greater than 45 degree (all the way up to 90) angle of attack on the board with these saws.

Not sure what all this means, but those are what I observed from his books and from watching him at Wood Works.

Robert

Re: How Do YOU Hold Your Japanese Handsaws? (long)

Paul M. in San Diego

>Hi Mitch,

I agree with the method of angling the blade so that the blade is diagonally across the workpiece instead of straight through it. I bought a tatebiki which is a longer version of a ryoba with only the rip teeth on one side of the blade. I hated using a ryoba since the crosscut teeth kept jambing up the kerf. I've used it many times to rip boards of varying thicknesses, and this is the approach I use:

I mount the board vertically in my fase vice. I use the left edge of the vice so that the cut will be outside of the vice and bench. It helps that I made the vice to have a left edge that is inline with the edge of the bench so that I always know where the bench is. I put a scrap of the same width in the other side of the vice to prevent racking.

I then start the cut straight across the edge of the board. When I've entered the board to the depth of the teeth (my saw has about 1/4" teeth),

I then stop cutting the back side of the board and drop the saw so that I'm pulling downward at about a 45 degree angle. The idea is to keep the teeth in the back of the kerf, but follow your line on the face towards you. At this point, I'm kneeling to pull the saw handle down, not pulling across. My index finger is on the top of the handle as I pull the saw down. I watch the line on my side of the board, and go down a few inches.

I then unclamp the board, and turn it front to back to see the other face. I've marked the cut line on both sides, to allow this to be done. I then again angle the cut down and kneel while continuing another few inches. Then reverse and repeat.

I've used this method to resaw a 7" wide board and I got within about 1/32 of my cut line across the entire board from end to end. For resawing, I start on one end of the board and alternate sides by changing my stance. I don't have to move the stock to do this. Then I wedge the kerf and start the cut again from the other end of the board, as it's hard to resaw when your board is clamped from face to face.

Lots of words... I hope it makes sense!

Re: I think it was Mark Grable

dburnard

>Index finger on top sounded weird to me - seemed odd when I tried it out just now. The comment later on about ow Odate uses that grip may make more sense. Generally I've got my thumb on top, way back on the handle. Light grip.