smoother purchase advice

Re: smoother purchase advice

Jim Cosgrove

>The plane I reach for most often for final smoothing is my L-N 4.5. For me, the advantage is the wide blade. I put a slight camber on my smoother blades and a wider blade means that the very slight scalloping that the blade leaves on the wood is less pronounced. I have the iron version. It's a personal thing, but I'm not fond of the bronze and the way it oxidizes.

It's heavy, as you noted, but I think that is an advantage for final smoothing. When I need a ligher plane I often use a Primus.

Go for the L-N! You won't be disappointed.

My 2 cents,

Jim

Re: smoother purchase advice

Robin Frierson

>LN 4 1/2 is the go-to smoother for a number of people. Adding the high angle frog makes it a real performer. That said, the #4 in bronze is also a great plane. On really bad tearout prone woods wetting the wood and using the non rusting #4 bronze is the way I go.

Re: smoother purchase advice

Ron in Richmond Hill

>I purchased a LN 4.5 about two years ago and after learning how to sharpen the blade, I keep it within arm's length as the workhouse in my shop. You can upgrade the chipbreaker and with a high angle frog, the bird's eye will be singing as it flies out. It's my choice.

Re: smoother purchase advice

Dean in Burlington

>You could try a LN 5.5. It is a little longer with more mass than the LN 4.5 but can still be used as a smoother if mass is what you are looking for.

Re: smoother purchase advice

R.J.Whelan

>Mike ... the final smoothing strokes on all of my pieces (cherry or harder) are with a Clark and Williams coffin body smoother with York pitch - I am thinking about getting a second plane with the iron bedded at 42-43� for soft woods.

The wooden body of the plane seems to burnish the wood being planed.

I have long been an admirer/user of wooden planes and have built well over 100 myself (laminated style) - the ones I have from C&W and Steve Knight far surpass the performance of my humble attempts. I have accepted the fact that the object of the exercise is to have the best possible tool for the intended job and while building one's own tools is tremendously rewarding, in my case, it does not produce the "best tool".

Sorry, kinda' wandered off-topic there.

Consider a wooden plane from C&W of Steve Knight.

rj

Re: Veritas MkII power sharpener update

steve knight

>is 5# enough? been making coffins with that weight. though I usualy do it on 60 degree planes. makes them work like magic.

Re: smoother purchase advice

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks, RJ, you've given me permission to talk about wooden smoothers. :)

Anyhow, I'd recommend getting the LN 4.5 (not that I have one, but all the LN planes I do have are wonderful), getting rid of the Stanley's, and getting a really nice wooden smoother for final polishing. As another alternative (although I love my C&W), why not try a Japanese plane?

Pam

Re: smoother purchase advice

joel

>Anther advantage of a traditional wooden smoother is that the the shorter a smooth plane is the better is is for smoothing as it does up and down the valleys and hills of the wood better.

Typcially the #3 or #4 were the smoother of choice but a wooden coffin smoother is even shorter!!!

Re: smoother purchase advice

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Why do you think you need permission, Pam? (rhetorical question). I also find it curious that when someone asks a question about planes, especially smoothers, that all the "first responders" answer as if there were no alternatives but Bailey design bench planes for this task. Have they experienced nothing else? Were they traumatized in Junior High shop class by a three fingered instructor? Are they closet Normites?

It's akin to asking how to get a tree out of the woods and getting a half a dozen replies extolling the virtues of various new and used Chevy trucks. Or asking how to repair a chair and getting only advise on the best hammer and the best type of nails to use.

What's the matter with infills (old or new), ECE/Primus wooden smoothers, low angle metal planes (#164 types), real Japanese design planes (whose subtleties are impressing me more and more), Left Coast wooden smoothers (Knight, Krenov, etc.) and so forth?

I grant that in this case, Mike's criteria put a strong emphasis on increased mass, but this should not rule out recommending infills at least. Maybe the right answer is lowering the bench, thus adding more of the carpenter's mass to the mass of the plane?

Re: smoother purchase advice

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You're joking, right? It's an interesting argument, regardless. At the point you're using a smoother, supposedly the wood surface is more or less flat; so the smallness to go with the undulations would have to be quite small indeed, probably much smaller than 6" or so.

OTOH, if you're saying the smaller smoothers remove the hills better/faster, presumably because it's only the nearest hills that the shorter plane sits on, I think I'd buy it. Probably a longer plane wouldn't get to the hill in question for quite a while.

Pam

Re: smoother purchase advice

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't want to get to the point that everyone can anticipate my responses. "Oh, here's a question about planes and there's Pam's response that Japanese planes are better. I can skip that one." If, instead, I can respond to someone other than the original questioner, it's always possible that I'm saying something different. Of course, in this case I'm not; but it does seem a bit more interesting, at least to me. :)

Pam

Re: smoother purchase advice

joel

>no I'm not joking.

A long plane is accurate that's why we use long planes for jointing edges for gluing or straightening.

THe purpose of a smoother is to create smooth surface - not accurate ones. the shorter the smooth plane the better it will follow the contour of the wood - go up the hills and down the valleys and not make the wood more accurate but products a continous shaving and a better finish.

you might say - wait a second - the differnce in arc between a 9" plane and a 7" plane isn't much - that's true - but it does make a difference when you are using .001" shavings over a very slightly curved surface - which is the typcial situation in real life.

note: in a japance plane the typical hollowing of the sole beind the blade accomplishes most of the same result.

Re: smoother purchase advice

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I don't own LN but if you are wanting more mass go With the 4 1/2 I have a Stanley 3, 4 & 4 1/2 and the mass and wider blade are nice. Get both frogs as long as we are spending your money. I guess my go to is a home made infill but it is made of to light steel for any mass.

In addition....

Steve Kubien

>Sir William's idea is a great excuse to build a new bench!

Oh come on, anyone can merely chop down the legs of an existing bench. Where's the challenge?

Runnin' and duckin'

Steve Kubien

Re: In addition....

joel

>Build a new bench? who has the time?

Chop down the legs of a Bench? sacralige!

the simple solution - raise the floor -

Also a opportunity to add some insulation.

Re: smoother purchase advice

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>No question that the job of smoothing is easier if you follow the undulations. Depending on grain, of course; but at .001" grain doesn't really matter so much.

I agree that a 7" plane would follow more hills than a 9" plane; but it certainly wouldn't necessarily follow all of them.

In a Japanese plane there are many configurations for the sole behind the blade, including having the entire section be slightly higher off the planed surface. This would provide a much shorter sole that would follow more undulations; although that rear section is not all that long. The hollow in front of the blade would provide even more benefit for following undulations. AFAIK it's always present and runs from toe to just in front of the blade. So a two-touch down point plane would be superior for this. What! They ARE superior for smoothing. How could I have forgotten?

However, often a dai is made with 3 or 4 touch down points; so not all Japanese smoothing planes are perfect smoothers.

Pam

Re: smoother purchase advice

joel

>absolutely - hollowing the sole of a Japanese plane makes it more of a true smoother and also helps with changes in the weather. But in western planes - the goal in sole care is flatness. so shorter overall length is better.

However these days when most people mill wood by machine they don't really need a very very short smoother. becaus overall the wood will be flat. Me on the other hand - I mill wood by hand and I can tell you it's a lot more work if I only use longer planes.

Mass

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I keep hearing this thing about mass coming up quite often. I think mass is important, but only if you are working in hardwoods with knarly grain whith a higher bedding and bevel angle. And even so, it is only one of several factors that influence a planes performance. So why do you wan't more mass?

In this case, a heavier plane with a wider iron, would be easier to keep moving on a larger workpiece. If this is the type of work you are doing, then more mass is what you want, along with a really sharp thick iron, and a wooden bed that helps dampen vibrations, also thick second or cap iron. Hmmmm, starting to sound like the description for an infill..eh?

A wooden plane will also work nicely set with a fine mouth and for a wispy shaving. This plane is lighter, but with a thick sharp iron, thick cap iron and wooden bed for damping. Wood on wood has less friction, and with a waxed sole will glide through tough hardwood with knarly grain if your iron is really sharp. No extra mass needed and your arms will be less fatigued when your done.

If you really want a 4 1/2 and set the bevel angle at 30 degrees, your intention being larger surfaces in common hardwoods, the added mass will help. The thicker L-N iron and improved chip breaker add to the performance of this finely made plane. You still might want to follow with a few light passes with your scraper plane or #3. The L-N brass #3 is a very nicely balanced plane with plenty of punch set with a fine mouth and light cut.

You've got lot's of choices, you can't go wrong with whatever you choose to add to your arsenal. Have fun

Re: smoother purchase advice

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Why limit yourself to just one new smoother? You have asked for help from a group which is filled with aiders and abettors to help you slide further down the slippery slope. Different planes in both style, weight, width, and blade pitch all have different uses and advantages. My personal arsenal includes a bit of everything (well almost). 2 #3, #3C, #4, #4C, 4 1/2C, LN 4 1/2 with both a 45 & 50 degree frogs, Sargent 409, C&W coffin smoother w/ 55 degree pitch, a Shepherd Tool Spiers #7 smoother. To make matters even more interesting Steve Knight is making me a 50 degree smoother too.

Bottom line, we bet ya can't buy just one!! ;-)

Re: Mass

David Linnabary

>It's partially the mass and inertia but it is the vibration dampening effect of the added mass that has the biggest impact on quality of finish.

Makes me ponder corrugated vs smooth sole, should I ever buy a LN new... hmmm.

David

I don't think so

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I don't think that cast iron has the same vibration damping, no matter how heavy or thick the casting, as wood. I can tell you from experience that on a steel frame building, while walking the iron on the 40th floor, you can feel the vibration from an ironworker swinging a beater on the ground floor, not to mention the vibration from an impact gun. As far as damping is concerned, wood is a better material.

Re: I don't think so

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>It is the period of the oscillations that is important. That depends on the elasticity of the material. The trick to an infill is to tightly bond the two different materials with significantly different natural oscillation frequencies, so that any vibration that may start in one of them is immediately dampened by the other. Of course, this is an art, because the natural frequency of each piece depends on its geometry as well as its mass and its stiffness. Also, the blade and cap have a natural frequency, as does the wood that you are planing. The idea is to kill it before the plane jumps off the surface or the blade dives into the wood.

Re: I don't think so

joel

>That's a great way of expressing it - IMHO the single most important factor in plane performance is fit and finish (much more so tha any single factor such and Blade angle, material, etc) and this is exactly what you are saying except in more scientific terms.

Re: Mass

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Tearout happens when the wood fibers separate somewhere in front of the gap between the cutting edge and the back edge of the mouth. Additional mass does several things for you.

The most immediate benefit is pushing down on the wood at the back of the mouth, so that any splitting of the wood that starts in front of the cutting edge is suppressed, and not allowed to propagate. If the grain is straight or running up in front of the blade, that is not a problem, but when the grain dives, the fibers are stronger than the lignin that holds them together. Thus you need to force the cutting edge to cut through the fiber, instead of lifting it and the plane on top of it that is holding it down. The thicker the cut, the stiffer the fibers, the weaker the binder or the duller the blade, the more upward force that is generated on the front of the mouth, and the more mass that is required to keep the plane sole in contact with the wood.

Damping oscillations is also important for the same reason. If you don't put enough energy into the system to lift the plane when you cut through one fiber, but you strike the next fiber at the optimum time, the energy it puts in will tend to reenforce the vibration, and eventually the plane will lift and tearout will begin. Once it has begun, it is very difficult to stop, because now the sole of the plane is supported by those big splinters it has already pulled out, and it cannot be forced back down in contact with the previous surface. This makes room for more spinters to start.

Listen to the sound the plane makes as it cuts. If it hisses (white noise) all is working as it should. If it sings, you are getting undesirable oscillations. If it starts to crackle, you are hearing the wood splintering. You need to stop the singing before it progresses to a crackle.