Round holes or square?

Re: Round holes or square?

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Traditional or modern? A modern design will probably use 3/4" round because there are so many accessories that are designed for them, including articulated lights & magnifying glasses.

Re: Round holes or square?

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Rectangular holes are alot better. You can always drill a few 3/4" holes for other items. The reason for retangular is you spend several hours honing and sharpening tools do you really want to hit a round metal bench dog?

Re: Round holes or square?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Can't round bench dogs be wood? Maybe I didn't make those round things in my dog holes? :)

Pam

Re: Round holes or square?

SteveC

>I have four rows of round holes along my bench with a Veritas twin screw vise on the end. The round holes are very flexible allowing me to use traditional holdfasts, Veritas hold fasts, metal dogs, wooden dogs, and stops that span two or more holes. I also like the round dogs since they will rotate to accomodate an irregular shaped piece of work.

Re: Round holes or square?

Rod Cole

>Wouldn't want to hit a square metal one either I suspect.

I used round holes and homemade wooden dogs.

Cheap, easy, fast, and works fine.

- Rod

Re: Round holes or square?

Roy from Cincy

>I have round home made wood doggies, too. But can't they be square? I whittled my round doggies. I think square doggies would be quicker, but would they be better?

I vote for round dog holes.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>I built my bench with the traditional square dogholes originally. However, over the years I found that these did not really suite my needs. So I drilled the top for round dogholes, finding that these are just so much more practical and versatile.

I use 3/4" inch jarrah dowels as the basis of my dogs (this size is the same as those used for the Veritas accessories). These may be used as-is or, as I prefer, set into a rectangle of timber. Make the rectangles of different sizes (both length- and depth-wise), and you can accomodate different thickness of timber against it. I have included a picture below of one in use (bottom left side - unfortunately you can only see the top, but there is a dowel that drops into the bench top. My apologies for the quality - clipped pic from a recent posting to the site).

The advantage of this system is the the bench dog can rotate slightly to accommadate to off-square timber. Also you can add the Veritas Wonder Dogs at the other end (makes a versatile end vise system).

Not traditional but it works for me in my cramped space (bench up against the wall in a garage-workshop).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Round holes or square?

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Everybody's got an opinion. Mine is well rounded "^) There's nothing easier than 3/4" dowel stock and a 3/4" Forstner bit for kludging up a dog or a jig or whatever. Lots of modern, high-tech, well-thought-out carving and steam bending accessories from Lee Valley fit 3/4" round holes. If you like to plane against a single stop, instead of a stop wider than your board, you get extra brownie points for the additional difficulty of planing against a round stop instead of a square stop.

In days of yore, especially if you didn't have a lathe in your shop, making rectangular dogs, with a haunch to keep them from falling through onto the floor, was a lot less hassle, but you couldn't use the same dog hole for clamping long work in your tail vise as you use for short work in your shoulder vise. Back in those days, they had not invented the use of dogs in shoulder vises, so interchangeability wasn't so important :^J

Re: Round holes or square?

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>What follows is an answer I made to this question several years ago. There are several areas of redundancy with earlier replies in this thread, so please just consider those confirmatory. There are also several tips on how to make and maintain those holes that I don't think have been addressed. So here it is:

Gee, we haven't had a good round vs square hole battle for at least a year. There are advantages and disadvantages to each system, but I believe the excellent family of dogging and holding devices offered by Veritas tip the balance in favor of round holes.

Just a few quick points: Yes, the round holes do better dealing with holding irregular pieces.

Yes the round holes are easier to put into a workbench and about the only way realistic way to add good dog holes later.

No, in good thick dense wood, they don't appreciably elongate the holes. Even should this eventually happen, you could drill the holes oversize, glue in a dowel of maple or something even denser (hey, how about Lignum Vitae surrounds), and redrill your dog holes. Keep in mind that it is virtually never necessary to have a gorilla grip on wood you are working with, it only mars the wood and puts unnecessary stresses on the clamping devises.

The Veritas family of holding devises, dogs, pups, wonder dogs, wonder pups, holddown, etc. allows for an exceedingly adaptable system of securement. Also they are slightly under 3/4 inch in size, allowing just the right amount of clearance if the hole is made with a standard 3/4 inch bit.

Do look at the Ulmia Combination Bench and the Veritas Bench for dog hole ideas.

Do consider a thick skirt (no less than 1.5 inches thick ) across at least the front which can also be drilled for dog holes.

Do lightly chamfer the entrance to your round dog holes with a router or large countersink.

Do use a brad point power drill bit, or Irwins or Jennings hand brace bit to make the holes (don't use a spade bit or general purpose bit). If you use a brad point bit, do buy a new, high quality bit for the job. This is not a place to buy a bargain 3/4 drill bit.

Do try to use a 1/2 heavy duty corded drill for the holes (unless you have a way to muscle it onto a drill press). Drilling these holes in 3 inch hard maple is a very demanding task that will likely prove very frustrating with a battery operated drill.

Do make a jig to equally space your holes and make sure they are vertical (Lee Valley has nice instructions for one).

Do apply a penetrating finish to your dog holes. The penetrating finish won't change the clearances, and will help prevent the holes from serving as a pathway for moisture into the top.

Don't be surprised if you have to slightly redrill your round holes during the first year as the top moves with seasonal changes. This time, use a general purpose working bit for this, a 3/4 inch reamer would also work really well.

Do try to leave space below your top (or inside the skirt) to access the hole from below just in case you ever need to drive a stubbornly stuck one through from either the top or the bottom.

Do realize that you will need some clearance space below the top or behind the skirt to accommodate the long shafts of some hold downs, or to possibly temporarily bolt things down to the top with 3/4 inch bolts (e.g., my Leigh jig is on a board with two 3/4 holes in it that match the spacing of the dog holes, when I use it, I set it flush with the edge of the bench and secure it with two 3/4 inch bolts running through the mounting board and on through the top. That provides a very secure method of holding without any clamps getting in the way, and allows the jig to be quickly and easily installed or removed).

There is surely more, but this is what readily comes to mind.

Lyn

Re: Round holes or square?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sure, they can be square if that's what you need. My point was that there are more choices than square wood and round metal.

I've found it handy to use dowels as the stems for round, then I can top them with various shapes, combine two for various stops as William mentioned.

Pam

Round Holes Win!

Roy from Cincy

>Looks like round holes are the way to go. Thanks everyone.

Re: I vote for round dog holes.

Jack Guzman from Maine

>You said you drilled round holes after you found that square dogs didn't suit you. Did you just drill additional holes leaving the square holes where they are?or--Did you fill the square holes somehow and then rebore them round?---Jack

Re: Round holes or square?

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I cut square holes in my benchtop and built dogs to fit. They work great for what they were intended for but I'm beginning to wish I had gone round. The square ones are limited to only one function whereas the round holes can be used for all kinds of accessories.My opinion--go round.---Jack

Re: Round holes or square?

Alan Bierbaum

>Ya know that you can put a round dog in a square hole, don't cha.

Re: Both

TMStock

>Sounds like a solution to the holy war...square when you have to hold stuff down, and round when you need to plane something round...

Re: Round holes or square?

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Leigh jig? Oh that's all the excuse I need to buy one.

Re: Both

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I like that. It's the best of both worlds. Hmmm...I wonder where the holes should go on my bench...Jack

Re: Round holes or square?

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I doubt that holdfasts will work in a square hole.(13/16x3/4 rectangular to be exact). Also I can fit all kinds of 3/4" diam objects in them but they don't fill the space very well. I like the idea of two sets of holes.At least it sounds good from my computer desk. I'll look at it more realistically tomorrow when I go play in the shop.I also got to figure out if I can practically put a leg vice on my bench.Starting to drift off subject---Jack

Re: Both

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Jack

I just added round holes to my bench leaving the square dog holes untouched. I drilled holes in front of my Record 52-1/2 face vises (I have two, one at each end of the bench), and others in from of my end vise. This gives me great versatility to clamp on the bench.

My plan has been to build a new bench (when I can put aside the projects for home - well, that was the plan 10 years ago) and, when I do, I will only use tround dog holes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Use both and put them in the right place

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Use both square and round. There's no law that says you have to choose just one type.

Square holes are difficult to make once the bench is finished, so put them in while building the bench. Put them close to the front edge.

My ugly bench has a row of square holes along the front edge and a variety of round holes dotted around the surface wherever they were needed at the time.

It 'aint pretty but it works.

regards

Angus Barclay