Quality hand tools??

Another comment

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>I will not be an apologist for Shepherd, but on the subject of quality control systems and ISO 9000 I have a few comments. Small craft makers of hand tools and any other product produced in small quantity rarely have the luxury of using the standard tools of larger batch and production run manufacturers such as statistical process control or a written quality system. It is unrealistic for a 1-3 person operation to develop such systems unless to use an example, you want my $44 Snakewood marking knife to retail for $&5 or more. The time involved in writing proceedures, running checks, sampling, and keeping track of and analyzing the paperwork alone would cripple production. Instead we rely on simpler and unfortunately more archaic methodology such as dimensional inspection and even more importantly careful visual inspection. This doesn't mean that we don't and can't exercise inprocess inspection and informally set paramaters, but the process tends to be informal. The other issue is the capital investment involved for items such as statistical programs, shadowgraphs or coordinate measuring machines, and hardness testing equipment. I'll wager that you could go into 3/4 of the small toolmakers and not find any of that equipment. Yes, LN, LV, Bill Carter, and Carl Holtey might have these things, but they are either former machinists, or they are significantly larger than most craft shops.

Where am I going with this long ramble? I make the case that for the small shop the most important factors for quality are attitude based and only secondarily based on formal quality systems. It all comes down to pride and attention to detail. "Good enuf" just doesn't cut it and all of the quality systems in the world won't make up for a lacadasical attitude. Remember theoretically if you wanted to get registered to ISO 9000-2000 you could by simply stating as your quality policy, " I make crap and sell it for as much as I can get." If you could prove it to the registrar and documented itproperly, you would get registered.

By the way, I'm very familiar with quality systems and in the past have been a member of ASQ.

Adenda

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>I forgot to mention that statistically speaking 100% inspection whether visual or by a measuring instrument is only 80% effective. This alone should tell you why bad or defective products sometimes make it thru quality departments. Even SPC based quality systems produce the occasional bad part depending on where the upper and lower control limits are set and the level of sampling done.

Re: Quality control

Tom_in_Syracuse

>If you don't know the company then don't trust an ISO label as far as you can kick the stack of paperwork most companies generate in response to being "ISO Certified". I have developed quality systems for several companies and am currently the top quality executive for a mid sized manufacturing firm. A company isn't allowed to put "ISO Quality" or "ISO Certified" on their products since what you have is an "ISO9001:2000 Certified Quality Management System".

If the product is designed for quality and the manufacturing processes are stabilized and controlled then the ISO documentation means that a company should be able to keep them that way.

Hear hear!

David Barnett

>

Re: Magazine Reviews

Dan Donaldson

>I don't know which magazine you are referring to, but I do know that Ellis periodically does tool tests for various magazines. He has talked about it on the boards here (you should be able to find it with a search) and, at least in his case, he does as fair of a review as it is possible for him to do. I am also sure that he does not take into account whether the maker advertises or not. I obviously cannot talk about all magazines, as I have no way of knowing, but I would trust a review done by Ellis. That said, he, or any other reviewer may have different priorities than you do. For this reason, you need to read the review as one person's opinion, and make your own judgement based on what is important to you.

There is nothing wrong with talking about problems that you have had with ANY maker's product, or giving an opinion based on experience, but let's be careful that we keep it to the facts as seen and not get into bashing anyone. Opinions are also fine, as long as they do not get into things like name calling or over the top bashing.

Re: Sounds like a challenge

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I'm not sure exactly what field you work in, but I'll bet that Union #5A plane I just got that if you send me a piece of your work I can write a bad review about it.

Re: Quality hand tools??

John A. H.

>Actually, I personally dont see gaps around the

dovetails. Must have different photos in your FWW.

Non parallel sides are an issue and I am sure, per article, will be rectified by replacement.

As to why quality is low today:

The majority of the consumer woodworking business is dominated by mass produced machine tools from China and Taiwan. Apart from the occasional junk we run into, these tools are mostly reasonable value for money. When a machine planer costs $300 how many people are you going to find to pay $300 for a decent hand plane? Per another person's comment, commercial woodworkers only use hand planes for tuning joints. The rest of us buy decent hand tools mostly because we enjoy using them.

Re: Quality hand tools??

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi

>I find this thread and the original review in Fine Woodworking interesting. The most interesting thing about both is the lack of mention about performance. I only noticed one comment, and it was brief, about how well the Shepherd planes worked. The comment about performance wasn't in the original review.

Jim Crammond

Let's be careful

Dan Donaldson

>Up to now, the thread is marginally OK, but I think that it would be better not to go any farther. Everyone has an opinion. I haven't actually seen the plane in question, other than in the pictures. The reviewer had some comments about it, but unless I see it myself, it is still one person's opinion. (I am not maligning the review either, just saying that it is his experience, and not mine and on one particular plane that may or may not be typical).

Someone specifically looking for something wrong with anything can probably find "something", even if it is so minor as not to matter to anyone. I have seen at least pictures of some of David's work (not woodworking) and it is exquisite (sp?;-)) and totally beyond anything I would have the patience or knowledge to even attempt. That said, I would not be willing to pay for that kind of quality in a plane unless it was a Holtey or something like that. (which I would not pay anyway because I cannot afford it ;-))

Let's let this one go before it degrades and becomes necessary to do something. As long as things are kept to the facts etc., not a problem, but let's be careful about getting personal.

I won't pick on any one person. If I do have to do anything, I will remove the entire thread, but would prefer not to do that as there is useful info here. Thanks

Dan D.

Re: Quality hand tools??

Ben Knebel

>Thank you Rob--you are correct we do stand behind our products and had there been time I would have replaced the planes as I would and have done for customers regardless of the issues(I have even replaced perfectly good planes simply because the customer didn't like the colour and grain of the wood). Occasionally, and it is occasionally, we do have a quality issue that slips through the cracks--when we discover it we correct it and incorporate what we have learned into our manufacturing processes.We are but 2 years old and are making changes to our products as we find better processes and/or materials. There is no manufacturer --old or new --that can say they haven't been there.

We have put more than 600 units in the field now with pretty close to 200 being finished product.

We do prefer to sell the kits as we believe this is the best value for the money and allows the customer to have the singular experience of building their own high performance hand plane.

One persons post mentions the Charlesworth review--he built the plane from a kit so if he didn't like the fit and finish....

We do not proport to be a Hutchinson or a Holtey nor could we be at our price points from a fit and finish perspective--performance though is every bit as good. Those very fine planes are 4 to 15 times our price and we want to make the infill affordable to the average woodworker. I do know and have been told by those that have used our infills and others that ours perform every bit as well as any out there by any manufacturer including the originals excepting only the Steve Thomas planes which outperform anything out there--Steve isn't a commercial manufacturer though.

As to the FWW review---The circumstances were thus. We got a call with a request for a couple of shoulder planes for the review. Originally we weren't going to be in this review but were asked because another maker of dovetailed shoulder planes declined to participate and FWW wanted the dovetailed infill planes represented. We agreed but did not have any planes in stock--so we had to build them. The deadline was 3 weeks away and that 3 weeks included build and shipping time to Salt Lake I think it was. Yes we did hurry the process and yes we did not check the planes as closely as we should have and thus the planes weren't up to spec. Shame on us for that. We did not realise this untill FWW called us and told us about the problem--by then the deadline for the article was at hand and it was too late to send out new planes.

Make no mistake I am not trying the do a CYA here--merely I want to explain the circumstances.

I debated long and hard as to whether or not I would respond at all but on reflection I felt the thread had gone too far without a comment from us.

BTW---We got the planes back and the paralelism problem--as was mentioned in the review --was very slight--I reground the walls and brought them back to true---sold the planes as seconds to another customer who is quite pleased with them.

Regards

Ben

Re: Quality hand tools??

Greg Sloop

>Thanks. It's always good to hear the "other side" of a story. It often makes things seem a lot more reasonable.

And, at least IMHO, I don't consider this CYA.

Thanks again,

Greg

Re: Quality hand tools??

Rob Lee

>Hi -

That should be available mid-August....

Watch for an ad in Pop Woodworking (and others)for an introductory price...both on the new one, and a set of three....

Cheers -

Rob

So Ben,what did you learn?

Bob Hackett

>What did you learn from this experience that will help you make things better?Do you think it would have been better to have passed on the opportunity?Do you plan on writing a letter to FWW explaining what YOU found and the fixes you did?Just wondering where and how this info will be processed and used to help improve things for your company.

The other problem that has been mentioned here more than once is that the customer service end of your company can stand major improvement.Not answering e-mails from folks who have already had thier cards charged and 6 month turnarounds for replacements/repairs is a good way to send customers elsewhere,never to return.All these things may be adding up to a big hint to slow things down alittle.

You folks are offering a great service in the way of planemaking workshops and trying to make infills more affordable is truly a noble endeavor.I know I`d hate to see you guys disappear because you overextended yourselves.It`s people like you and Steve Knight that have given others the motivation to start making tools and marketing them,afew of them post here.Let`s hope you can turn this around and make it the success story it should be.

Mainely,Bob

Put your specs on 

david b

>

Re: Quality hand tools??

Charles

>You're right. I was about to place an order for two Shepherd planes. That order will not be placed, now or in the future.

Re: So Ben,what did you learn?

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Until the Chinese start selling infill planes, the Shepherd planes are about as inexpensive as one can imagine being able to purchase ready-made. The flip side of that is, perhaps, a few minor quality issues. TANSTAAFL.

However, the reports of slow email response (and other) delays do not seem appropriate, even for their level of business. I hope that they will address these issues, and clear them up.

Thanks

TMStock

>Ben:

Thanks for showing up for the target practice - when participation is voluntary, it's amazing how few choose to do so.

Given that the folks looking for low-priced infills have either elected to cancel orders or choose to accept your return and fix policy in hope that they won't have to use it, consider the following:

1. Old Tools guys are never going to pop for a new plane - there are way too many good deals in used stuff that just required a few hours of time to bring back to life

2. New Tool 'Budget Buyers' will follow recommendations and go for the $140 value buy (and do you really want to go after those buyers anyway?).

The folks that are left? They want both truth and beauty (preferably without spending every weekend rust hunting) and are willing to pay for it. Add another 3-4 hours to assembly and tuning time to get things just so, then charge another couple hundred.

Todd

Re: Quality hand tools??

Jonathan Peck -N.Y.

>I'd like to say one more thing because my experiences with this company are positive despite having received planes that I had to or should have sent back. My first experience was from buying two shoulder planes from e*bay, for which I paid less than the list price in a competitive bid situation. I was looking forward to receiving these planes, and was definitely dissapointed when they finally arrived. My first reaction was very negative as the flaws were so obvious, to me anyway, that I suspected that Shepherd was selling their seconds on e*bay without making disclosure in the bid description.

My experience with Ben was positive after that as he offered to replace the planes, and kept me updated with the build, which took longer that expected due to an unfortunate hand injury which I can sympathize with. Alot of the six months it took to get it right was eaten up in shipping back and forth from the US and Canada. Something out of both of our control. All in all, I enjoyed my correspondence with Ben. We had some good laughs and exchanged information on topics that had nothing to do with my shoulder planes. The planes arrived and they were very nice examples of the Shepherd company's fine work.

Based on this experience, I jumped right on Ben's christmas sale. Despite some problems with the sole on this plane, it is a solid and fine smoother and a bargain at the sale price. I didn't bother Ben with this problem, because I can fix it myself. I'm sure had I mentioned it, Ben would have built me another one, no questions asked. This smoother, with it's "D" style handle is hefty, solid and I will not bark at the hardest of of hard woods that I am afraid to push my Spiers through because I'm worried that I'll snap the rear handle off of it.

I hope that this public trashing has a positive outcome for the Shepherd tool company. I have experienced the same growth pains in my company, and can say from experience that there are periods when the end product suffers because of growth. In the end, it is my partner and I's personal attention that turn a negative impression into a repeat business client. BTW- our corporate clients also expect, and receive, first class construction fit outs at bargain prices with ridiculas time schedules. Our philosophy is "happy tenant" and we will go into our own pockets to assure this end. I think that the Shepherd company takes this same approach, at least based upon my experiences with them

Regards

Jonathan

Re: So Ben,what did you learn?

Ben Knebel

>Hi Bob;

The basic learning was that you just don't send something out that hasn't been checked---had we gone through our normal processes the planes wouldn't have gone out the way they did( It wasn't that we don't check but rather that we were in a hurry and skipped a step)---but then we would not have had the magazine opportunity---in hindsight I would rather not have sent them or at least been given more time to do it right.

Interestingly I've had a couple of shoulder plane orders from customers that had seen the review and thought it was unfair--that was their opinion not mine. FWW reported what they saw--rightly so.

We've addressed the e-mail issues and I try to respond within 24 to 36 hours of getting any -e or v-mails. Usually I respond within hours and usually the same day. I check e-mails first thin in the mornings and just before I retire for the night.

The 6 month wait for a repair is not normal and as Jonathon pointed out I had a hand injury that precluded me from building anything for almost 9 weeks and very slowly after that --for 8 more weeks --while I went through rehab.The backlog built up horredously during that time and Jonathon got caught in that.

Before someone else jumps in with "yea but" we did also have delivery delays due to supplier issues--we are still young as a company and don't always get a high priority from our suppliers and not always the best quality. We had both types of issues through the fall and early part of this year and had to scramble to get better priorities and better suppliers. It was a trying time and some of the e-mail issues occurred then as well as we were working 24/7 to fix the issues with the suppliers---the non responsiveness was still inexcusable but the above is why it happened.

BTW--The supplier issues aren't entirely gone yet --but almost.

We have thought often about slowing down but when you get to the point where work volume requires both Doug and myself fulltime (and fulltime here means 16 hour days 7 days a week) in the business cash becomes an issue very quickly--you have to sell in order to live and believe me that's what we're doing --barely.

Not surprising that there would be financial struggles for a startup but you lose the luxury of slowing down to fix issues---you fix as you go and if product that isn't up to snuff inadvertantly gets out--you fix it--and we do.

Not only do you fix but you do something extra for the customer--in some cases I've upgraded from steel to brass--on very large orders I've thrown in a smaller plane gratis and in others where I felt the delays had been particularly bad I offered the customer an extra item and a lifetime 10% discount on anything they wanted to order from us--even if we had it on sale.

We have made mistakes and corrected all that have come to our attention. We fix issues quickly but what often happens is this---the problem is reported somewhere and you've already fixed it and moved on so the comments are of what was then but isn't the case now.

Thank you for your comments.

Regards

Ben

Re: Quality hand tools??

Ben Knebel

>There are no gaps in those dovetails---on the steel plane what you see as a line is not the dovetail but a scratch in the steel.

The gaps that David b. is referring to are probabaly those at the very toe of the plane where the outer edge of the sidewall plate meets the front of the the sole plate in the corner of the two metals.

While we do try to elimnate these they will sometimes show.

Indeed you will see these on original Spiers and Norris planes quite commonly--not always, but often.

In the collecting community it is considered one of the "telltales" to look for to ensure you are dealing with an original dovetailed plane.

The join at the toe and heel of the planes is not mechanical i.e--the metals merely rest against each other at those points as the dovetail joints--which are mechanical-- start further back so sometimes the line between the 2 metals is visible at the corners of the heel and toe.

Regards

Ben

Thanks Ben

Bob Hackett

>I knew I could count on a thoughtful reply to some hard questions.It sounds like you`ve got some growing pains that are recognized and adressed.I had forgotten about your hand injury,I hope it`s back to nearly normal by now.

16 hours,7 days a week?You folks are in danger of serious burnout.I know you`re dedicated to your dream but you do need some time for family and self in order to stay married and sane(if there is such a state).

Mainely,Bob

What a Shame

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont

>Hi Charles,

What a shame, you'll never know the pleasure of using a finely designed hand plane from Shepherd Tools.

About two years ago I was able to spend a day with Ben and make my smoother, it's a pleasure to use.

One thinks that sometimes in life that a second chance is granted for a reason, with the warranty that they offer how can you go wrong, but quick to judge comment really offers you the disservice.

Respectfully,

Jim

But Dave

Jim Shaver Oakville, Ont

>Hi Dave,

But if you design with respect to the CTQ's and understand the effects of the KC's on the CTQ's then your Y=f(X) will yield at least a 3.4 PPM or better, right!!!

:-)

Take care,

Jim Shaver

Six Sigma Black Belt, Lean Expert, DFSS (Design for Six Sigma)...

couldn't resist that Dave..

Equally amazing...

Bob Hackett

>Not too long ago everyone was saying how FWW has really gone downhill and they especially hated the steady stream of BS tool reviews.

For folks who were fairly adamant about not putting much stock in such tripe I`m surprised so many have treated thier review as gospel.

Just an observation to think about.

Before you make any decisions about not owning one of thier infills I`d look at Ben`s answer to my previous post.If you`re still unconvinced then feel free to contact Holtey or Anderson.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Thanks Ben

Ben Knebel

>Marriage already gone--sanity soon to follow.

There are life changing experiences that can drastically alter your viewpoint and what is important to you.

About 6 years ago I had cancer--almost croaked --but got through it. I was also already in my 40's and unhappy with my life--can you say mid-life crisis and then some.

I have always felt that you have to do what is right for you--as long as you don't harm others in the process--and decided that the computer business ( where I had been doing high 6 figures for years) was no longer satisfying. And time was indeed short.

When I looked at this business I took the view that this was the last opportunity I had to do something for me--sounds selfish I know--but it was simply something I had to do.

My wife went through something similar and went back to University--got a degree in education and became a teacher---something she just had to do.

Our lives took very seperate directions and we parted--we're still very good friends BTW.

But back to this business---I entered it for a number of reasons:

It allowed me to work with my hands.

It combined a number of interests--history, writing, tool collecting, woodworking, running my own business, etc.

There will be a legacy out of this--I am leaving something tangible behind.

And not least I believe--as trite as this will sound--that we are doing a service for the woodworking community by providing reasonably priced access to what I still think is the best designed plane ever built--the infill of course.

Further,there is bliss in helping people build thier own high performance plane and seeing the joy on thier faces when they take thier first shavings with a plane they built themselves.

A long way of saying that the 16 X 7 weeks are worth it.

Regards

Ben