FWW Aug Issue...Not Bad At All

Re: Rob Cosman & age

Alan Bierbaum

>I am way older than 52 and still cut dovetails; maybe (probably) not as good as Rob Cosman. I cut to fit from the saw; but so sometimes have to pare a little bit (I try not to have them loose).

I do it the way Chris B does and with hardwoods like cherry and maple (my favorite); some paring may be necessary. You don't have to fully mate the joint; just go far enough to make sure that it will go together when you get glue on it (DAMHIKT).

The attached picture is poplar from my current project.

As to age:

Last week, I got caught across town on job that went past my normal lunch time. I stopped at an Arbies and ordered (inside, not drive through). When the nice YOUNG lady asked for money; it was less than the advertised price. I informed her that the price seemed too low. She replied: "I gave you the senior discount".

Re: Beeksvoort tips

Todd Stock

>Absolutely (striking forehead with palm) - rock maple always, and all but the softest soft maple.

For some reason, I don't see that much being done in maple (other than figured), but I love it as a secondary wood when only a light stain (or none) will be applied. For all it's tendency to split if mistreated, maple does take a very clean edge from a saw, so tails look really sharp on drawers.

Re: AARP (Now Wildly OT)

Todd Stock

>Cackles, Don??? Your wife never reads your posts, does she?

I'm 47, but the next birthday would be questionable if I described my wife's laughter as anything other than the 'gentle tinkle of delicate bells' or some such thing.

Given that she's one of few women I know to have been assigned to and served with a Special Forces Group, I have to worry about these things...

Re: FWW Aug Issue...Not Bad At All

Alan Hamilton

>I find this thread veeery interesting. Even the subject, "not bad at all" speaks volumes.

It doesn't seem too long ago that accomplished and aspiring wood workers swooned at how wonderful the month's magazine was. Now it's how far it has risen from the "bad"; how it has elevated above our low expectations.

I hope the editors look at this thread. From a thread over on Knots and the chat here, I think the editorial staff is in denial.

Alan

The skinny on no test fit DT's

Rob Cosman

>You asked so here is my take on the topic. There are several hundred maybe even a thousand or more Canadian woodworkers that can now support this. In order to assemble straight from the saw simply check the following; the tails (cut first) must be cut square across the endgrain, the saw cuts must be straight (good saw does this on its own), angle is less important. Your shoulder lines must have been cut to the mark, easy to check by eye, repair it if needed. Laying out the pins is where most failures happen. After transferring and before you move the tailboard check to see if the lines are where they should be. Too much downward pressure into the endgrain of the pin board instead of side pressure holding the knife tight to the side of the tails is a common mistake. Once this is done it is a matter of splitting the knife lines of the pins. If you leave half the line it will fit, if you leave all of the line and them some it will split. If you take out all of the line it will be sloppy. I get 30% of my first time students doing this right the first time. This is in a 4 hour workshop, we practice sawing perpendicular cuts, chiseling, sawing with the fret saw, using the marking gauge and laying out the joint. 70% the right tools, 20% proper methods and 10% practice. You don�t have to cut hundreds to get good. I have posted student dovetails before, most of my pics are too high res to post here and I haven�t a clue how to change that. I do have some on my website if you care to look. http://www.robcosman.ca/Training_the_hand.htm

Cheers

Rob

Re: The skinny on no test fit DT's

joel

>I was pretty much trained the same way (I studied with Maurice Fraser in NYC) and seeing a classroom of first timers assemble their joints for the first time is really something. I think you would admit it isn't brain surgery. The key is understanding what you are trying to achive and getting practice at the basic element of sawing correctly and of course laying things out correctly. But 70% the right tools? Come on.

Any tool can be the right tool if the user knows how to sharpen and maintain it.

In class we all used a 5 dollar gent's saw that worked just great. Sadly it isn't made anymore but it was a great learning saw. My first set of chisels which I learned on were footprints set of 4. They also worked fine. Speed came later. That takes practice and getting used to the tools. Better tools do make things go faster and in some cases more fun , and god knows I love having the best tools I can find which is why I ended up a collector. It is no fun fighting your equipment. But the more experience I have, the more I realize that the tools have very little to do with it and it's mostly paying attention, understanding and learning technique, and practice.

Re:Not Bad At All

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I really believe those people who think the magazine is bad and going downhill should write some good articles for it.

Re: The skinny on no test fit DT's

Rob Cosman

>Joel you will notice I said "the right tools", dont read into that any brand names. Use an off the shelf cheapie saw with wide set cross cut teeth and forget trying to make "saw cut" to "saw cut" joints. Use a coping saw with a coarse wide blade that roughs up the kerf on the way down and there goes your nice joint. A lousy marking guage that compresses fibers or scratches instead of cutting and your chisel does not cut where it should. 70% you question! Having the right tools is the biggest part of the equation. Yes you need the knowledge and a bit of practise is necessary but the tools are the key. I try to poll the public whenever I get the chance and the number one answer is almost always the same. What is the hardest step in hand cutting dovetails? "Cutting a straight line". This is a function of the "saw", not the user or the users skill. I bring the innocent bystander (usually the better half) up to my bench to demonstrate. With the right "saw" and no prior sawing experience they always are able to make a perfectly straight cut. If you don't understand why a straight cut is the key let me know and I will explain, tommorrow. Good night!

Rob

Re: Beeksvort tips

dave caudill

>For anyone who has seen Chris Becksvooort cut a set of dovetails it is a sight to behold! I am glad I had the opportunity to see it once.

Dave

Re: The skinny on no test fit DT's

joel

>"Use an off the shelf cheapie saw with wide set cross cut teeth and forget trying to make "saw cut" to "saw cut" joints."

Well that's what we did and we got lots of - saw cut to saw cut joints. but yeah I would agree a better saw makes it easier and certainly sawing straight is the hardest part of dovetailing.

There is a learning curve with any tool but then again I feel really good that I have learned how to cut straight with just about anything.

A good gauge is also important but knowing how to use it is even more important. How many times have we seen nicely cut gauge lines that remain visible after the project is all done because they were cut too deep? If you know what a gauge is supposed to do, (and this applies to any tool) and what the finished result should be - taking any gauge and using it the right way so it becomes the right tool is pretty easy.

Re:Not Bad At All

Todd Stock

>I agree, although I'm on the fence re: where FWW is going and whether it's not a better idea to publish on the web and reach a wider audience.

I'm not sure if this discussion is less about declining quality and more about just how much tougher it is these days to produce a reference journal such as FWW.

While a comparison of dovetail techniques between a Becksvoort and a Cosman might have taken a year or so to fully discuss in the 'Letters' section of mid-'80 issues, #172 is still being delivered to overseas subscribers as we close out this debate.

I like getting FWW in the mail. I enjoy reading it, even when I see silly stuff like Carter's 'sand your jointer blades' or some such nonsense.

But it's not the central source of skills, techniques and knowledge that it once was for woodworkers interested in doing better work. That role has been assumed by the Net and sites like WC, where more information can be debated, deflated, or defamed in a day than FAA can cover in a year's worth of issues.

Heck, even the humor's better here...FWW has always been way too serious.

Re: here's some hope  *LINK*

paul womack

>


http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens/htmlfile/dt1-e.h

Re: The skinny on no test fit DT's

paul womack

>Rob spoke of tools, methods and practice, and proposed a ratio that works.

I suspect there are other ratios that also work.

BugBear

Re:Not Bad At All

Rod Cole

>I offered up an article idea last year, but they decided not go any further down hill I guess. :)

- Rod Cole

Re:Not Bad At All

Alan Hamilton

>Moses,

I've seen responses like yours several times. But the idea that "if you can't do better, don't criticize" makes no sense whatever.

You certainly know when the piano is out of tune, even though you don't know how to tune it. I need not know how to brew beer to know this beer tastes terrible. Likewise, one need not be able to write a "better" magazine article to know that the current articles aren't very good. There is an infinite number of examples, but I think I need not go on.

To put a sharp point on it: a critique is good or bad, relevant or not, because of its contents, not because of the abilities of the one who wrote it.

Alan

Re: Okay

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I can see your point, but I try not to critique something that I don't know how to fix; just my own personal preference; I really am not much good at knowing when the piano is out of tune, but when my wife says it is out of tune I know exactly what to do; call the piano tuner.

I have not subscribed to Fine Woodworking regularly untilt he past three years I've gotten every issue, and I guess maybe part of what bothers me with all the critics is that there are a number of features I enjoy in the magazine and I would hate to see the magazine just disappear. Perhaps there is room for another magazine in the market that caters to the esoterics of fine art craftsmanship and has no interst in getting new woodworkers started.

Part of the problem I think is the number of people willing to start a new hobby and then giving up on it shortly thereafter; there is an unlimited supply of beginners.

Re: Okay

Alan Hamilton

>Moses,

It's certainly true that lots of folks take up hobbies and quickly become disenchanted when they cannot produce quality work instantly; and you're right that this creates an unending supply of newbies. Those newbies gravitate to sites and magazines like Fine Woodworking because that's what they want to do; so the magazine lowers its sights to include them.

But there is a postive side to this: tools!

When I made my living as a commercial photographer I bought my Hasselblad--in pristine condition--from a dentist. I got my 4"x5" Bessey enlarger, with cold light head and color head, from an attorney--and the list goes on. Disgruntled newbies (and widows) are a great source of top drawer tools for bargain prices.

Even so, I'm not sure we're ahead when we sacrifice the quality of FWW in exchange for some deals on implements of the craft.

Alan