Rob Cosman

Re: Rob Cosman

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Rob is the Canadian rep for LN; so you'd expect to see their chisels in his video first, probably some early beta versions.

Pam

Re: Rob Cosman

Charles

>There's nothing Rob Cosman can do with the new L-N chisels that I couldn't do with a Marples Blue Chip.

I just haven't done it on film.

I learned a long time ago, and several thousands of dollars ago, that expensive tools don't make a better woodworker. The day I came to that realization was the day I became a woodworker.

Totally Agree...

Todd Stock

>Damn straight - I keep saying that my double secret mitered dovetails are as sweet as anything Cosman or Breed or Charlesworth can do.

Just as soon as I buy that x-ray machine off the 'Bay, I'll show you...

Re: Totally Agree...

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I wish I could cut dovetails as clean as Rob's.Mine look more like what you see on old dressers.

On a side note. I cut my first half blinds the other day and found them easier than through DTs.---Jack

Re: Rob Cosman

Duncan S. Robertson

>Now that I'm lucky enough to have my woodworking back to being a hobby, I'm able to concentrate on a single thing, enjoyment. If I can get a hand tool that makes my enjoyment climb because it makes the work easier,reduces the time away from the actual work, or is plain and simple a better tool to use, I'll buy and use it. I have a set of blue chip and I used the same sharpening skills on my LN chisels that I did on my blue chip chisels, the results were a better longer lasting edge on the LN chisels. This increases the basic reason I woodwork, enjoyment!!! As to the cost, if I only am able to woodwork for the next 25 years and I only use the chisels 3 hours a week then they have raised my enjoyment level by the cost of 0.06 per hour, yes thats right six cents an hour. Lets see, if I lower my current coffee intake by 1 cup every month then the Chisels are free!!!!!!!!!! My wife says I drink too much coffee anyway.

Re: Rob Cosman

Asher F.

>Right on: no one says that VW is a bad ride, but wouldn't you rather drive a Mercedes?

Guys, this is a terrific forum!

Re: Rob Cosman (now moving rapidly OT)

Todd Stock

>Hey - I love my V-Dub - same chassis/suspension, motor, and tranny as an A4 and $10K cheaper.

That said, I think the Audis hold an edge longer in hardwood than the 'Dubs. Must be the extra cost...

Ummmm

Steve Kubien

>Top-notch tools won't make you a better woodworker? How about that spiffy DT saw that tracks straight and true right out of the box? There are many people who have no interest in the rehab of old saws or new, more economical ones. I would contend that that spiffy saw will make you a better woodworker.

How about needing less time between sharpenings and re-grind because the quality of the steel in your irons and chisels is so high? To me the translates into more time working with the wood which should, by logical extension, make you a better woodworker.

Sorry about this but it always gets on my nerves when people summarily dismiss an entire range of tools, be it based on brand, price, vintage or electron usage. Maybe I'll get that second cup of coffee now.

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Rob Cosman

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There are a couple of points of contention here; but certainly your definition of Mercedes quality must differ from mine.

Pam

Re: Rob Cosman

Todd Stock

>One person's features are another person's bugs...

I think the Blue Chip are wonderful. No nasty wood handle to crack/split/patina; nice, thick edges to better justify a dedicated set of skews for half blind DTs; wonderful "traction grip" grind to prevent slippage...

I love my Chips...

Re: Rob Cosman (now moving rapidly OT)

Asher F.

>That said, I think the Audis hold an edge longer in hardwood than the 'Dubs. Must be the extra cost...

My point exactly.

Re: Ummmm

Stephen in Ottawa

>Steve,

I don't think anyone is disputing the quality of LN tools. I for one own a few LN planes and love them. However, I have learned that skill cannot be bought. Chopping an accurate square mortise is more than owning the best mortise chisel that stays sharp the longest, sawing a straight line is more than owning a LN or Adria saw and getting shiny smooth surfaces on your wood with your smoother is more than owning the best smoothing plane ( whichever that may be :-). True, tools that are pretty good out of the box, makes the novice's learning curve easier, but that same person is going to have to learn to tune their tools at some point. What will one do when that beautiful LN saw gets dull?

- Stephen

Re: Rob Cosman

George Huron

>Amen.

Re: Rob Cosman (now moving rapidly OT)

Paul Kierstead

>Yup, same thing I tell people about my VW and why I didn't buy an Audi. Though the Audi has a heated steering wheel and I really wish I had that on those -20 mornings; might have been worth the 10K. And it rides real nice. I could have bought a Mercedes and didn't. and, BTW, my friends C-class is nothing but trouble.

But I am sure the chisels are real nice. Some day I want to buy something a little special, I will probably look at them.

Mercedes Quality?

Ryan Stagg -- Cincinnati

>Interesting that you should be derisive about Mercedes quality -- have you owned one? I'm genuinely curious.

It's quite natural that many people derive their opinions on various manufacturers based on a single experience of their own or someone that they know. In the manufacturing sector, we do about 70% of our work, CAE, in automotive, so I make it a point to peruse actual market data from time to time.

On JD Power's IQS (Initial Quality Study), in which they rate various nameplates problems per 100 vehicles, Benz sits comfortably at 10th on the list; 6 positions above the industry average. Far above GMC, Chrysler(!), and even Nissan and Mitsubishi. VW, interestingly, is only second to Hummer in terms of problems per vehicle; very interesting given that Audi is well above the average. Mercedes has had their problems in the past, but I understand that they make an impeccable product these days.

I guess I'm just saying, when a manufacturer makes thousands of anything, there will be flukes, lemons, and a number that run perfectly. Don't judge the brand from just how yours or your neighbor's aunt's son's girlfriend's runs. ;-) These things are a bit more complex to manufacture consistently than chisels.

Note that this is *initial* quality; I couldn't put my fingers on long-term reliability numbers. If I find any I'll post them; but again, Daimler has had problems in past years, where the data would track.

Sorry for the hijack; just getting philosophical in my old age.

Re: Mercedes Quality?

Paul Kierstead

>Consumer reports, if you trust them (and *I* do), has interesting information on quality. The previous few years Merc's have done well, but the latest C-classes have indeed done dismally.

"Manufacturer" quality can be misleading. For example, the Passat (which I own) is still made in Germany, or at least was when I bought mine in 99. The others are made "offshore" and will possibly be different, although in theory they should be able to correctly set the desired level of quality regardless of the plant. Of course, the Passat is somewhat more expensive :)

I, for one, do not go on anecdotal evidence for the most part (well, hardly at all). When I bought my Passat, I used CR extensively to balance out reliability, features, etc. So far it has worked out reasonably well;

I really wish woodworking had a resource that was even 1% of CR , particularly for power-tools, but for hand tools as well. Most of the WW magazines had questionable methodology much of the time, limited coverage and sufficient commercial interest to hesitate to really slam manufacturers.

Point well taken...a bit long

Steve Kubien

>Hi Stephen,

I fully understand where you are coming from and agree 100%. A LN, LV, Knight or C&W plane will not teach you skill. What they will do is give the newbie an appreciation of how a tool is supposed to work (I didn't undertand truly fluffy shavings until I received my Knight smoother). Since getting my Knight, I have further tuned my type 11 #4 and it gives fantastic fluff. I had no idea how good a handsaw could be until Tom Law worked his magic on my vintage Atkins 8pt crosscut.

As you said, a person needs to know/learn how to use his tools before great results can be had. My dovetails are better since getting my STW dovetail saw, but I am still not in the class of our distinguished members.

There is a place for people who want to own (their perception of) the best tools available. Many will swear by their bronze masterpieces or their modern infills or whatever. Also, a large number of folks will stand by their original bedrocks, older Stanleys, and 100+ year old coffins, chisels and saws. Now, am I going to spend X hundreds of dollars on a new set of chisels? No, that's outta my price league. But, I will gladly pay $20 or $30 for my Hirsch's and suppliment them with 2 Cherries or AI's until I have a truly full set. If Witherbys and 750's cross my path, that will be just as good to me.

Sorry to be long-winded. As I said before, something about this thread has touched a nerve with me.

Best regards,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ont.

remove the _9 to email

P.S. Did I mention how I hate it when someone states that, "Brand X chisels are cr*p!" and other such things? Oh well, that is probably a debate to be taken off the forum. Way more mud-slinging than is appropriate.

Re: Point well taken...a bit long

Stephen in Ottawa

>Steve,

I agree with you. I too disagree when people completely condemn all brands of a tool except the one they like. Oh well ... to each his own, I guess.

- Stephen

Re: Mercedes Quality?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well I wasn't being derisive about Mercedes' quality at all. I was commenting on the comparison of the LN chisels to one of the best cars on the market. While they may be very good, as almost all LN products are, I don't think they are of that caliber. So there.

Pam

Or bevel up v.s. bevel down...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>

Re: Mercedes Quality?

Jeff Mackay, Milwaukee

>Don't forget though that the reliability of Consumer Reports data is only as accurate as those who respond to their surveys on quality. CR generally views imports favorably (Honda, Toyota, Nissan). Subscribers make their buying decisions based on CR recommendations, and then in turn respond to CR surveys. It's no wonder that those manufacturers consistently do well on the CR surveys.

I'm not trying to knock the quality of imports (I own two Hondas). I'm just trying to say that statistically, the CR studies are skewed in favor of manufacturers who have been well rated in the past.

Re: Mercedes Quality?

Paul Kierstead

>Don't forget though that the reliability of Consumer Reports data is only as accurate as those who respond to their surveys on quality. CR generally views imports favorably (Honda, Toyota, Nissan). Subscribers make their buying decisions based on CR recommendations, and then in turn respond to CR surveys. It's no wonder that those manufacturers consistently do well on the CR surveys.

Interesting point; they could suffer from some level of self fulfilling prophecy. But actually I think that if those consumers had a bad experience with a recommended vehicle, they would be inclined to be more likely to fill out the survey and give CR a "piece of their mind" more or less. CR has a few holes (for example, their 911 Turbo coverage is poor :)) but seems to be corroborated with other sources that are neutral. Although they are not perfect, I really believe they are an order of magnitude above the others. Although they have a few pet issues, I think they truly act their very best in the interest of the consumer in the huge majority of cases.

Heh, we are well of topic now. But, bringing it back, imagine if CR did hand tool tests? I can see the outraged posts now: But they didn't try planing super-exotic-ultra-figured-XXX, so how could the possibly claim it is a good plane?? But it would still be great stuff.

Re: Mercedes Quality?

Ryan Stagg -- Cincinnati

>Ah -- I just misinterpreted your post. No offense meant, many apologies if I did.

Re: Mercedes Quality?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>CR reviews average stuff for average people. For example, if you're a professional photographer, don't bother reading the camera reviews. If you're an audiophile, don't bother reading the stereo reviews, etc. So in areas in which I'm an average consumer, such as appliances, paint, lawn and garden tools, etc., CR is invaluable, a real time and money saver. But in areas in which I'm more expert, I don't bother with CR.

Pam