Denatured Alcohol

Re: Denatured Alcohol

joel

>she's right but if you are using it for shellac you don't want any alcohol that has been diluted with water.

Re: Denatured Alcohol

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>Doesn't need to be denatured--white lightning works, too! From what I have seen, as long as the alcohol content of about anything approaches 100%, they work out pretty much the same on wood.

"Everclear" is one line of grain alcohol at ~198 proof; tried some a few years ago after reading a recommendation that it was somehow better than paint store denatured alcohol, and couldn't tell any real difference (hardness, dry time) with samples dried on glass. Behlen "Belkol" (?sp) seemed to brush a little better, but I mainly pad now, so the price difference swings it back to the borg stuff.

Water content makes the most difference--as long as the alcohol and mix are fresh and good quality to begin with, all of the flavors I have tried are awfully similar in practice.




/jvs, thinking back to college days, and shuddering (more than) a little....

Re: Denatured Alcohol

Skip in Falls Church

>Hi Steve,

Since isopropyl alcohol can't be safely consumed, there is no reason to denature it. Usually when someone refers to denatured alcohol, they are talking about ethyl (drinking or grain) alcohol that has something added to keep people from drinking it.

Skip

More on Isopropyl Alcohol, etc. *LINK*

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Steve -

There was an interesting thread on isopropyl alcohol back in Nov 2003. You might find some helpful stuff there.

Regards -

Dave


More on Isopropyl Alcohol

She's wrong...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>Isopropanol is a denaturant. By definition, it's already denatured, and nothing else is added to make it even more poisonous. Denatured alcohol can be bought at dePot et al, in the solvent/stain aisle.

Not only that but...

Dan Donaldson

>What we normally refer to as denatured alcohol for shellac is ethyl alcohol, not isopropal.

Re: Denatured Alcohol

JL work

>Speaking as a chemist (who also is a woodworker).

Denatured alchol is ethanol (ethyl alcohol) that has had various denaturing agents added to it to make it undrinkable. Typical additives are

1) Methyl alcohol - poisonous, flammble

2) Methyl Ethyl Ketone - flammable

3) Ethyl acetate - flammable

You can also add other denaturing agents. Typically they just add the above three ingredients.

Re: Denatured Alcohol

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Steve,

Coupla years ago, I had the same question: Do I need a fancy lab-grade alcohol to mix up shellac? When I called Jeff Jewitt to place the shellac order, I asked him, and he said, 'oh no, just buy what they have at the local hardware or big box store'. As Joel said, keep it dry, because if it gets a little water in it, it's all over. DAMHIKT.

Wiley

Re: Denatured Alcohol

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Steve It's not hard to find but I priced it from a industrial supplier and it was $31.90CDN a gallon for denatured alchol. Finally gave up and bought a couple of LV's shellac thinner and it works good. It took a good day for the 3 lb cut to dissolve.

Thanks everyone

Steve Kubien

>My (sizeable) gut told me something was amiss. Home Depot in Canada doesn't know what denatured alcohol is (at least the 2 or 3 I've been in). I don't remember seeing ethyl alcohol but I will now be looking for it. If that feels me, I'll take Jim's advice and go shopping at my favourite store on THIS planet (Lee Valley).

What would happen if I used 99% or 198 proof isopropyl alcohol since it is readily available and cheap?

Thanks again,

Steve Kubien, who is wishing he paid more attention in chemistry class

Ajax, Ontario

remove the _9 to email

Try "methylated spirits" in Canada.

Dan Donaldson

>

Re: More on Isopropyl Alcohol, etc.

Steve Kubien

>Thanks Dave!

I just read through it and, yup, there's bunch of good stuff there.

Cheers,

Steve Kubien

remove the _9 to email

Re: Try "methylated spirits" in Canada.

Steve Kubien

>Oh, is that the metric version against the imperial?

Runnin' and duckin'

Steve K

Re: Or "Methyl Hydrate" in Canada.

Brian Greene

>

Re: Or "Methyl Hydrate" in Canada.

Steve Kubien

>Really? Well, that easy enough.

Thanks huge!

Steve Kubien

Eye-carumba!

Steve Kubien

>I just called my local liquor store and they want $21.95 for 500ml of ethanol! (or, a pint of Everclear for those south of the border). In metric or imperial that is not cheap! I guess Methyl hydrate is it for me.

Thanks everybody.

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ont.

remove the _9 to email

Re: Eye-carumba!

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>Not sure how it works up yonder, but down here potable alcohols are taxed within an inch of death. Denature 'em, and the cost goes way, way down...

Nah ;-)

Dan Donaldson

>I just read somewhere that it was called that in Canada.

Re: Denatured Alcohol

Stephen in Ottawa

>Steve,

I tried to find denatured alcohol here in Ottawa. It wasn't available in the hardware or paint stores that I tried. It is available at chemical supply houses. If you need it for shellac, I've used the LV shellac thinner, which is essentially denatured alcohol. Though I've never done so, I think you can also use 99% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol. It contains less water than the common drugstore variety, which I think is 70%. From what I hear, isopropyl alcohol takes longer to dry than denatured alcohol, which is an advantage in some shellac applications, especially when brushing.

- Stephen

Re: Or "Methyl Hydrate" in Canada.

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Methyl Hydrate is pure methanol, CH₃OH, which is a lot more dangerous and poisonous than either isopropanol, C₃H₇OH, or ethanol, C₂H₅OH, with a little bit of methanol added. I would not use use it if I could find any alternative.

3-5% methanol, balance ethanol

Andrew F in Australia

>Called Methylated Spirits here as someone said - Methyl Hydrate is a new one. They add the methanol and a bittering agent to make it less appealing to the drunks. I don't know your local equivalent.

Sorry if this is a duplicate post - I couldn't see a description of what you were looking for in the other posts I checked

Re: Eye-carumba!

Frank D. in Montreal

>Hi Steve,

I wouldn't use methyl hydrate, but I'm just chicken when it comes to stuff that can destroy my central nervous system even if only absorbed through my fingers. Isopropyl alchohol, the 99% stuff, is easiest to find in Canada at the vet supply store, farmers use it for cattle. Not so handy if you live in a big city.

Ethyl achohol, even when it is denatured, is the safest alcohol to work with although it evaporates a tad faster than isopropyl. You can find it (denatured) at chemical supply places but they often don't want to sell it to someone who doesnn't have their own business. I don't use shellac in industrial quantities so I just buy the shellac thinner from Lee Valley which is ethyl alcohol.

Frank

Re: Or "Methyl Hydrate" in Canada. *LINK*

Craig Treleaven

>William:

I believe you are incorrect. "Methyl Hydrate" (at least in Canada) refers to methanol or wood alcohol. Follow the link below and scroll down to Methyl Hydrate. I believe this product is CH4O. You can read more about the brand I buy (C$6.50 for 4 litres) at:

http://www.recochem.com/english/products/household_solvents/methyl_hydrate.html

The safety warnings on the container do NOT include warnings about blindness, or other central nervous system damage, through skin absorption. DON'T DRINK IT -- that WILL cause blindness.

Getting back to Steve's question. The best explanation I've seen is that there are one, two and three carbon alcohols. Methyl hydrate, ethanol, and isopropyl alcohol, respectively, seem to be the options here in Canada. The one carbons dissolve shellac most quickly and evaporate most quickly. Three carbons are much slower in both respects.

I never use thicker cuts of shellac anymore (well, except for sealing knots). What I do now, is use methyl hydrate to dissolve shellac into a 3# cut (75 g. in 250 ml of solvent, for the metric among us). I just did some super blonde shellac the other day and it was mostly dissolved in about 6 hours in a cool basement. I then thin it to a working consistency (1 to 2# cut) with isopropyl alcohol which makes it much easier to brush on.

I used to buy isopropyl alcohol at the local pharmacy. I had to ask at the counter for the 99% strength--the rubbing alcohol on the shelf has 20-30% water. A woodworking friend (hi Darrell) tells me I can get it much cheaper at a local paint manufacturer and I need to do that in the near future.

OTOH, Lee Valley offers a solvent that is a pretty good trade-off between speed of dissolving and ease of application: "Shellac-Lacquer Thinner". The can says it contains "denatured ethanol and isobutanol". It also warns to use gloves and goggles for safety. It is more costly, though, at C$10.95 for .946 litres.

Craig

Disclaimer: I'm not a chemist or a safety engineer or otherwise trained about potentially hazardous chemicals. Come to think of it, please ignore everything I've written.


Recochem FAQs

all information is correct, dissolution recommenda

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>You may not be a chemist but your information is correct none the less. Good ventilation is as important to minimize flammability concerns as well as respiratory concerns.

As far as dissolving, there are some techniques that will make it go faster. The flakes will dissolve faster If upon adding the solvent to the falkes, the flakes are stirred occasionally . If the flakes just sit in the solvent they absorb solvent, get mushy and flow together into a large slow to dissolve mass.

By stirring, the solvent-softened surface of the flake will dissolve away and the flakes will be less likely to stick together and form a mass(mess).

Warm solvent will make things go faster, but finding a safe way to heat is not easy.

sitting in hot water of warm sun works, but stirring works best.