A51 smoother

Re: A51 smoother *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>This is what I've found so far

The A51 described in the Norris catalogue reprint as a plane made of ordinary iron (ie not malleable iron) parallel sides, 7 1/2'long x 2 1/4"cutter and selling in 1914 for $16/6

Here is a link I found. You might find this interesting (or not)


Norris Planes - A Guide

Re: A51 smoother

joel

>I have 2 of them. Assuming you have one in good shape THey work OK, better than a typcial bailey plane but not as well as a good condition pre-war A5 or A6. THe problem is that the iron is not bedded on wood like a true infill but on an iron bed. It's really Norris's shot at making a lower priced plane.

Re: A51 smoother

joel

>Jonathan,

Since I know you occasionally stop by the store if you give me aheads up (next week would be better) I am happy to bring in a A51 and a pre-war A5 so you can compare them.

joel

Re: A51 smoother

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>What is pre war? WW 1 or WW 2? What if your infill is made between wars ;(

Thanks,

Dan Clermont

Re: A51 smoother

joel

>Pre WW 2

very few pre WW1 Norris's survive - as before the great war they weren't considered a great plane company. The adjuster dates from 1913.

THe height of Norris would be the 1920's

Re: A51 smoother *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I haven't one....yet. I have an oportunity to pick-up a nice one in good to good+ condition. I think I'm going to pass on the A51 but I'm going to take you up on the visit.


A51 Bedding

Re: A51 smoother

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>What is pre war? WW 1 or WW 2? What if your infill is made between wars ;(

Thanks,

Dan Clermont

Threadjack: Joel, how does the Ray Iles infill...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>compare to a Norris A5 and A51 in terms of bedding?

just curious..

(FYI I have an Iles Infill I got from you...)

Re: Threadjack: Joel, how does the Ray Iles infill

joel

>Ray Iles's A5 has wood under the iron just like the Norris A5's. The only real differences between Ray's plane and a pre-war A5 Norris are:

Ray copied his adjuster from the last model post war A5 (better adjuster)

Ray welds his planes just like the post wars (which is neither here nor there)

Ray's Iron are a lot better than pre war Norris Irons

Ray uses Indian Rosewood because he can't get pre-war Brazillian Rosewood.

Ray also makes an A6

I'd say Rays Planes perform better than the post war (beech infill) Norris's and as well or almost as well as a top notch Pre-War A5

Note:

IF you can get 6 people or so to get together and come to my shop I will be happy to give a talk I did on the development of infill planes and you can try most of the important models out. Failing that the history channel is doing a show call "tool box" this summer. I am told that some of my planes and me yammering like an imbicile will be a major feature of the plane episode. Hopefully I will be wrong and I will end up on the cutting room floor.

(There is a bit of me in the drill show I am told - mostly holding a mongo big brace and bit and - you guessed it - yammering like an imbicile. ) I haven't seen the show so I don't know how embarrassing it will be yet.

Re: A51 smoother

joel

>sure - just give me a day or so notice

Re: Threadjack: Joel, how does the Ray Iles infill

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Most humble Joel...but having talked to you on the phone I can't imagine that you "yammer":-)JR

Welded???

Art Geiger

>Never heard the post war Norris planes were welded. Cast, yes. On an A5 it is difficult but I'd say it was a one piece body. On a panel plane it is cast because the body is rounded on the inside - and the front infill is rounded on the underside also.

Re: Welded???

joel

>All post war Norrises are either welded (the smoothers) or made from steel channel (the long planes). THere is a very rare post war version of the shoulder plane - I don't know how that was made.

The rounded edge you see on the panel planes is from the channel not from a casting.

As far as I know the cast planes were only made per-war.

Re: Welded???

Art Geiger

>What you saying Joel - steel channel isn't cast metal? I had occasion to refix a front infill on a post-war A5. When removed there was no join - or any weld residue for that matter either.

Re: Welded???

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>I thought that the common way to make steel channel is in a rolling mill. Aluminum channel, OTOH, is extruded.

Re: Welded???

joel

>Steel channel is what you get when you put steel thgouh a rolling mill. the fillets in the corner make for a stronger channel.

The weld is real good well ground and finished. They knew what they were doing - I suppose it is possible that some used castings but the ones I have seen and in my collection are welded. I also don't know of any authoritative reference that says they were cast after the war.

Re: Welded???

Art Geiger

>It makes sense what you say, as the engineering firm that bought out Norris would have applied efficient engineering principles to the product they acquired.

What they came up with was a quick, easy and above all cheap alternative to the labor intensive task of dovetailing. Clearly, the welded plates method is much cheaper than using a casting and a lot quicker too, considering a rough casting would need to be finished.

Not as good

DavidB

>I have an Iles A5 and a Norris post war A5. The Norris is the better plane, no question. The Iles is let down by a poorly engineered adjuster that isn't a patch on a Norris one.

Re: Not as good

joel

>why do you consider the Iles adjuster "poorly engineered"?

Re: Not as good

davidb

>There are 2 significant problems evident in the Iles adjusters I have (another one was obtained for a project plane):

1. Excessive movement (sloppy,loose) between stem thread and pivot thread. Norris had an adjustment screw on the pivot to take up slack - but intended for use much later when the threads had worn. The adjuster on the Iles A5 came supplied sloppy with no provision for tightening it up - t will only get worse. Spare adjuster for project plane was exactly the same.

2. Banjo thread is not accurately centred/drilled/tapped causing eccentric movement of the banjo (doesn't move concentrically) and scrapes on the base plate during part of each revolution. Adjuster for project plane was just the same, except it had seized and required considerable fettling to free it.

In conclusion, the adjusters are Norris 'type' but nowhere as good as the originals. The poor adjuster in the Iles A5 seriously affects its set up and adjustment of the blade.

Re: Not as good

joel

>Since I have never thought positively about the Norris adjuster I never gave the issue much thought. All my norrises have tons of play in the adjuster and they work fine for depth and I use a tap on the iron for lateral adjusting. The adjuster we have on our the Iles A5 that we use as a demo is at least as good as any Norris adjusters I have, certainly better than some. However I won't argue as I said above - I've never given the adjuster much thought. I have forwarded your comments to Ray. I haven't checked our records but I am assuming you got the plane from us and if you are not happy with the plane or the adjuster feel free to return them. No point in being unhappy when you don't have to be.

Re: Not as good

davidb

>You laterally adjust a Norris with a hammer??? That's why your Norris adjusters have 'tons of play'! Thomas would be turning in his grave if he knew hammers were beng used to adjust his planes!

The Norris A5 post war I have is little used and well cared for - the adjuster is sweet and precise with no noticeable play.

I found the Iles adjuster frustrating and extremely hit & miss in setting the blade. I changed the adjuster supplied for another one on the market and the plane has benefitted from it. The plane itself (minus the Iles adjuster) is quite reasonable.

Re: Not as good

joel

>I just use a hammer for lateral adjusting. The depth adjuster i do with the adjuster. Incidently this is the way I was taught to do it and tons of people I know do it this way. The problem isn't the play the problem is that the lateral adjuster won't lateraly move in fine enough increments. Doen't seem to bother the adjuster any and the lateral adjuster has the same lack of sensitivity on all the Norris I own.

To whose adjuster did you switch?

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

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