Thanks Dean

why NM mesages

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>if it can be said in the title line why repeat in the body? or at least that is why I use them

Re: why NM mesages

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hi Bill,

I found your *NM*'s were most helpful in guiding me to a new thread and were used, I thought, to add to the topic, but not thread jack it. But one doesn't have to scroll down the page very far to find a

ME TOO *NM*

Or A

:-) *NM*

What is that??

Re: Course Review

Dean in Burlington

>I don�t know if I should do another review after the last one. Apparently some people don�t think that I�m entitled to reviewing being a intermediate woodworker. But here it goes anyways.

The course was called �Training the hand� and was taught by Rob Cosman. It was a 5 day course, 13 hours per day and everything was done by hand.

Day one was just sharpening and flattening chisels and planes using waterstones 1000, 4000, and 8000 and using the grinder. Rob only teaches sharpening techniques without the use of jigs hence the name �training the hand�. Also we were taught how to check if our chisel was flat by using the �floresent tube test� which I think I�ve also read from David Charlesworth. Rob standards were very high so if you didn�t pass this test then you needed to start again with the 1000 stone. A lot of people in the class brought chisels they thought were flat (they worked on them prior to the class) but none of them passed the test and they needed to be re-done. Now this brings up an interesting point seeing a lot of people were wondering why it was taking us so long to flatten chisel in my "review of chisels". It seems a lot of people in our class were under the impression their chisel was flat but it truly wasn�t using the above test. I don�t want to get into another argument about this but maybe some people on this forum fall into this category. Maybe it doesn�t even matter if the chisel is perfect. We then went on and learned how to sharpen the chisels and planes without using jigs. We used the �ruler trick� for all plane blades. All in all it was a pretty gruesome day and the hands were very sore from sharpening for 13 hours.

Day two consisted of Rob teaching us the hand plane techniques. We would plane just a normal piece of pine with no worries about flatness and he would come around looking at our technique and giving us tips on weight transfer and positioning. We also did edge jointing without using the vise. We would just lay the board on its edge against the dog and keep the jointer plane level teaching good downward pressure techniques. When we passed the � board test we would move to the � inch board and then a � board. We also practiced using the adjuster to edge joint when one side is higher than the other. In the edge jointing exercise we also used 3 planes�.jointer, smoother then block. I believe we did some sawing and chisel paring exercises as well for practice for the dovetail session coming later in the week.

Day three was the big one. Rob taught us how to make a board from rough to ready on all six sides. We started with the scrub to get our reference side flat. Then we scrubed, jointed and smoothed the other side using our winding sticks as reference. Again�Rob standards were very high, winding sticks that looked good to some of us didn�t pass when he looked and then he would show us why. Next we worked the other side and jointed the edge, used the panel gage to joint the other edge parallel. Then we used a shooting board to clean up one end and a block plane to clean up the other. We started with a pine board, then did a mahogany board and then a poplar. It was another exhausting day.

Day four was the fun stuff. Rob taught us his famous dovetail. We worked on the normal and half-blind. He also demonstrated the mitre and hounds tooth.

Day five was mortise and tennon. Chopping by hand the mortise, sawing the tennon by hand, and using the rabbet block plane and shoulder plane to trim. We did both a standard mortise and a wedged mortise.

It was a great course and having a quality instructor on hand for 13 hours a day was a real bonus. There were people there from all kinds of places including western, and eastern Canada and even Florida. BTW the course was in Oakville, Ontario right beside Toronto. The thing that stood out for me in this course was Rob�s high standards. I�ve been to courses before were you bring stuff to the instructor to check and they say �good enough�. Well those words never came out of Rob�s mouth. He wasn�t afraid to tell you to keep working on it and showed what kind of standards you should be looking for in all of our work.

Also I know Rob gets a lot of flack for trying to sell his tools but this wasn�t the case. Rob never put the �hard sell� on anybody. Everyone was allowed to use any of his tools and he let the tools do the talking.

Obviously I recommend this course to the beginner or intermediate woodworker. Rob is very in depth in all the subjects�.shows why certain things do and don�t work and works you to death. I can't speak for the rest of the class but I'm pretty sure everyone had a great time. I am looking forward to the advanced class next year.

Thanks, and a question

Dan Donaldson

>Good review. Sounds like it was a good class. To me, it is interesting to see what is taught in the classes in case I ever get lucky enough to get to take one.

The question: Could you expound a bit on the Fluorescent test? I am afraid that I don't know what that is.

Thanks for the review.

Re: Thanks, and a question

Dean in Burlington

>I'll try. With the back of the chisel polished with the 8000 stone or whatever you finish on you look at the reflection of a floresent tube shop light and if the floresent tube skews or doesn't stay consistly strait to the end of the chisel tip then the chisel is not flat.

Please feel free, Dean, ...

Ted Owen, Moderator

>to do a review whenever you wish. That thread was very interesting, and many of us learned some new things.

And if you feel a tool is ineffective for you, please feel free to say so. While your tone may have been harsher than I'd have used, language differences between us simply reflect the diversity of woodworkers who find WoodCentral useful and enjoyable.

The concern about a "review" coming from a less experienced woodworker was just a little joking around.

Best, Ted,

Moderator

A+

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Now that was a good review. Lots of data provided and we can judge from the data if the course was good or not, for us. Personally I would have had problems with day 1 trying to fill a rain barrel with a thimble (1000 grit) but the rest would have been profitable if I could have held up to 13 hour days.

Would like to see more reviews on classes people take for the reasons given in other post and this review is a good model to follow. Could include price. Maybe they could be moved to Articles and Review section.

Re: Thanks, and a question

Dan Donaldson

>Hmmm, will have to try that, although I will probably hate myself for doing it ;-) Are you looking at the reflection across the chisel, along the chisel, or both?

Thanks Dean...

Martin from Granbury

>I talked to Rob for the first time on the phone about a year ago, when I was shopping for my first plane. He suggested I take his course, and I will, when I have acquired a few more planes, as I don't yet own everything needed for the course. Thanks for the review, it was useful to me, and makes me want to take the course even more. Perhaps summer 2005...

Re: read Bill's post carefully

paul womack

>

Re: A+ *LINK*

Dean in Burlington

>Thanks.

Prices and more information can be found on his website at the link below. $825cdn was a great price for 5 12hr days.


http://www.robcosman.ca/Workshops.htm

Re: Thanks, and a question

Dean in Burlington

>Along the chisel.

Re: Thanks, and a question

joel

>The only problem with doing this is that this assumes that you want the entire chisel back flat. Traditionally made chisels are intentionally made slightly hollow edge to tang. It makes it easier to get a flat back at the cuttting edge only. You can flatten the entire back and I know some people think it gives them better registration but that is certainly open to question and debate.

However the key bit is having the texture of honing all the way down to the very cutting edge with no roundover.

Unfortunately of the blades and chisels I have seen where someone tried to flatten the entire back more often or not after a few cycles of sharpening they end up with some rounding over.

I have never, ever, seen an old tool where someone had tried to flatten the entire back of a plane iron or chisel in the old days. You might say that with modern abrasives it is easier to do now - which is true, but there is certainly no traditional justification for it.

Re: Course Review

paul womack

>We also practiced using the adjuster to edge joint when one side is higher than the other.

The traditional (and faster, and easier, IMHO) approach is a subtly cambered blade.

BugBear

Re: Course Review(day 1)

Bob Hackett

>Seems to me if it took the majority of the class 13 hours and they ended up with sore hands just sharpening the tools in thier travel kit the instructor needs to look closely at his program of instruction,the tools used in the process,etc.

Any approach to sharpening that takes that long is one I`d be apt to discard,as would anyone interested in WWing as a source of relaxation rather than frustration.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Course Review(day 1)

GolfSteve in Calgary

>I remember the first day of sharpening...I took the same course two years ago.

Several things to consider:

1. Skill levels vary from never having sharpened anything before, to old timer's set in their sharpening ways (ie. some bad habits), to newbies who tried to sharpen their tools before the course but made a real mess of it, requiring much effort to correct the problem (something most students don't soon forget), to guys whose tools are in good shape and sharp.

2. Freehand sharpening is being taught, so there's a lot of technique to learn, especially for people who have never sharpened before.

3. There's quite a bit of sharpening to do:

Smoother plane

Jointer plane

Block plane

Rabbet or shoulder plane

Scrub plane

1/8" chisel

1/4" chisel

3/8" chisel

1/2" chisel

3/4" chisel

1/2" mortise chisel

I don't know if Rob still expects the back of the plane irons to be flattened, or if uses just the ruler trick now? It took me quite a while to flatten the back of all my irons.

4. The students also need to learn how to flatten and care for their sharpening stones.

5. The tools are expected to be flattened & sharpened perfectly - this isn't easy when you're just learning. I gotta admit that this first day is quite frustrating - but it was the most important thing that I took away from the course.

6. The thirteen hours includes introductions, getting set up, lunch, breaks, instruction time, etc. (Breaks are few and far between).

Re: Course Review(day 1)

Dean in Burlington

>Steve hit the nail on the head. The sharpening skill is the biggest thing I also improved on. I hear a lot that this is one of the most important things in woodworking so it should be a full day subject. While most people are fumbling with their jigs we can now sharpen a plane in 10-15 seconds without one.

And yes...Rob teaches the Charlesworth ruler trick which saved us a lot of time flattening the plane backs.

Re: Course Review

Ron in Richmond Hill

>I was on the same course as Dean and I want to add some additional content. I've taken other one day courses with Rob before and found him to be consistent in his approach. I learned how to care for stones, sharpen irons, use chisels and planes and cut dovetails. Rob helped me to learn new techniques to replace the incorrect self-taught ones I had. And the sad thing was, I thought I knew how to do all that stuff. Now there's no hestiation. When necessesary, I'll even go over to the grinder and put that $35 blade to the stone, relaxed and knowing what I'm doing. To me the course helped build confidence and I learned how a properly tuned tool should work. And my results are far better. And woodworking is more fun. I'm willing to challenge myself in other areas because I've conquered these.

You get a lot from these classes. We were in the class from 7:00 am to 8:00 pm, perhaps 10 - 15% instruction and the remainder hands-on. Always time to get one-on-one time for a specific question or time to chat with a neighbor. Throughout the class, there is no compromise on workmanship. You get it right or you do it over. I like learning how to get it right.

I recommend Rob's courses to anyone who wants to develop their hand skills to a higher level.

After a "review" like this do I need to add a disclaimer - if so, there's no affliation. I just think I consistently get incredible value for my training dollar.

Re: Course Review(day 1)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>True, some people "fumble" with their jigs; but piles of people here sharpen, etc., freehand.

Pam

Re: Course Review(day 1)

Dean in Burlington

>Well that's good to hear. I guess you know then why it takes a full day of sharpening to learn these techniques.

Re: Course Review(day 1)

Greg Sloop

>Dean...

I'd say it's really nice that you can use freehand sharpening.

However, I feel more comfortable using a jig. Since it takes me more than 15 seconds to get my shaprening stuff out from all the junk on top of it first, adding 30 seconds or so to place it in a jig and square it up isn't much of a problem.

I guess my point is that jigging isn't that time consuming a process. If it were a choice to spend 13 hours to learn this, or just put up with a jig the rest of my life, well lazy me, I'd choose the jig.

So, take it easy on the epithets for us techno folks who must rely on jigs - eh!? *grin*

(Just so you can categorize me properly, I've got the Marples blue chip chisel set from the Borg too... *evil grin* But to confound it a bit, I've got two LN planes!)

Anyway - best to you - just don't let things get you too hot. You make good points when calm and reasonable. As with most of us, when wound up we often look less than cool, calm and collected.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Course Review(day 1)

Dean in Burlington

>Hi Greg,

That's fine...everyone is entitled to using a jig. I was and Steve were just trying to justify why the sharpening bit of the course was so long.

I know you have a couple of LN planes. I have found a lot of your posts very interesting. I especially like the one where you challenged the frog users to show/tell you why you need a frog plane instead of a low angle plane. Interesting enough I don't think anyone had a good argument for the bedrock planes over the low angle.

Keep up the good posts.

A few edits and deletions...

Ted Owen, Moderator

>will be apparent. Perhaps I should have stepped in earlier. But most of you know how reluctant I am to use edit and delete authority.

No posted responses to this message are necessary.

Best, Ted

Flourescent "trick" (was Thanks, and a question)

Steven Hall

>Dean's description was not entirely accurate and it's hard enough to describe it to people when you are there to show them what to look for.

I'll try an clarify a bit:

take your hand palm up with your fingers away from you. That's your chisel or plane blade back.

Now take your right hand and lay it palm up on top of your left hand perpendicular to your left hand. That is your right hand's fingers will overlap your left thumb. That is the reflection of your shop's flourescent tube in the chisel or plane back.

Now, rotate your right hand so that the fingers point between the left thumb and left fingers. That's about the angle your want the reflection of the tube to be. Now slide your right hand away from you. This is the motion you want the flourescent tube to follow.

If, at the edges of the blade where you are concerned about flatness (the tip and the last inch or so) the reflection of the tube looks like something you'd see in a fun house mirror then the blade is not flat. If the tube reflection does not distort as at the edge of the blade then the blade is flat.

Clear as nud?

Steven Hall