WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

chisel steel theory

Posts

chisel steel theory

#1

chisel steel theory

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>We put a lot of thought into this topic before we chose CPM 3V for the chisels we made. Our objective was to make a superior chopping chisel. From our conversations with steel manufacturers, most particularly Crucible Steel, it seemed that toughness at high hardness was the most important attribute. If these properties were high then one could make a chisel that would hold up at more acute bevel angles which will result in better penetration and less deflection.

Toughness is the resistance of the steel to breaking under impact. High toughness means that a fine edge will not chip or break in use. The edge will withstand the high impact a chopping chisel encounters and withstand chip prying in mortising operations. Hardness is resistance to deformation. So a hard edge will not bend or crumble upon impact. Often greater hardness results in less toughness.

For a pareing chisel I would expect that about any of the common steels would be fine-O-1, A2, etc. These don't see the forces of a chopping chisel or the abrasion of a plane iron.

At some bevel angle about any steel will work without crumbling or breaking. So the advantage to be gained in what could be called a "high performance chisel" will be mainly in how acute an angle it it can be sharpened and survive.

Some hard tough steels that could be good chisel candidates are S7 and 3V but A2 is a reasonable choice as well. The ever popular carbon steel O-1 is less tough and Japanese carbon steel chisels are reputed to be prone to chipping. Tempering to a lower hardness results in more toughness but then crumbling can be a problem instead. M2 is plenty hard but lacks toughness and chisels made from M2 can chip( in the one case I have tried, hardly statistical).

There is some concern for abrasion resistance in a negative way. The very high abrasion resistance of 3V may be more useful in a plane iron that a chisel. In a chisel it could mean more difficulty sharpening than a less abrasion resistant steel, but we have not found this to be a significant problem in practice. There is certainly a great difference in ease of sharpening between a Marples chisel and one of 3V but much less difference between 3V and an A2 plane iron. ( I need to try chopping with an A2 plane iron and see how this steel does as a chopping chisel)

Note how cautious I have become in these posts over the past year, ever mindful of the critiques that invariably follow. At least you people are more kindly than the turners who I don't deal with any more. (But off in the shadows on Saturday while others are off to flea markets and still others filling out orders to LV and LN there is a growing number of people making their own chisels (and lathe tools) and they are successful.)

Re: chisel steel theory

#2

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Very intersting to me

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Bill I love your posts about tool making. There is so little to be found anywhere and even my father who's a retired metalurgist hasn't heard of. I am curious have you have any edge chip's. You guys thinking about making any mortise chisels? thanks Jim

Re: chisel steel theory

#3

mortise chisels

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I finally was shamed into handleing some mortise chisels. In my haste I was banging on them unhandled.(hard on the hands) Simple two part handle like a knife handle with flat sides for easy tactile indication of where it is pointed. (I need all the help I can get) I will do a picture as soon as someone comes by with a camera to make it. at 25 degree bevel angle they really penetrate easily. In fact light taps are sufficient for typical chip formation.

No chipping. 3V does not chip. At Rc 62 it will still bend rather than chip or break. A plane iron maker thinks he has seen some evidence of a chip but we will need some high resolution pictures to be sure. M2 dulls by micro chipping. The pictures show it clearly.

Re: chisel steel theory

#4

Re: chisel steel theory

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Bill,

I want you to know something. I really appreciate your investigations and the detailed reports you make on them. Read them avidly. Your collaborations with Steve Elliott are paying off, too, and I am very much looking forward to his plane-blade comparisons in the future. Steve has been most kind and helpful to me, and as a result I expect to make a couple of CPM 3V plane blades. I am sure there are others who are picking up the methods you have been developing.

I hope you will continue to provide us with your observations and experiments.

Wiley

Re: chisel steel theory

#5

Store bought tools

jim_reed@marietta

>Thanks for posting your testing results. One thing that seems clear is that mass market chisels may be great carpenter tools, but have limited use in the cabinet shop. I just made some O-1 mortise chisels which beat the cr*p out of anything I have found commercially.

Re: chisel steel theory

#6

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: Store bought tools

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Jim did what thickness of steel did you start with and did you use a bandsaw to cut the stock to size. Thanks Jim

Re: chisel steel theory

#7

This set

jim_reed@marietta

>is made from 3/8" flat ground stock. They are: 1/2" x 3/8", 3/8" x 3/8", 1/4" x 3/8", and 1/8" x 3/8". I cut them up with a cut off wheel and sent them out for heat treating with a batch of my plane blades. They are some real HE-MAN mortisers!

Re: chisel steel theory

#8

weldable?

Jonathan Ronnow, Sweden

>Bill, is CPM 3V weldable? I like the appearance and sharpness of japanese chisels, how would you, if possible, compare the sharpness achieved with cpm3v?

Im on a long shot here, Im thinking of cutting the blade off one of my standard japanese chisels(12$) and welding a piece of cmp3v to it instead. Whack off the handle, shape the blade and send to heat treatment...

Jr

Re: chisel steel theory

#9

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: This set

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Thanks Jim that gives me a good idea where to start should be fun.

Re: chisel steel theory

#10

welding and sharpening

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Weldable: don't know. Call crucible and ask 1-800-365-1185 Heat treating is at nearly 2000 degrees. Will the weld stand that? Why do you want to go to all that trouble? handles are easy to make or cheap to buy. Don't know how to mount a handle? I Can provide instructions for various options.

Sharpening: Any of the particle steels are extremely fine grain structure. Out experience is that they can be sharpened to any degree desirable. I see continuous edge refinement down to 1 micron diamond. I quit there. Actually I normally quit before there.

Re: chisel steel theory

#11

Re: chisel steel theory

Dave Burnard

>For my money, toughness is overrated when it comes to chisels...

I have a set of HSS (not sure which) japanese chisels that I got from the German Toolstore AB Dick. They are incredibly tough. They will take a pretty decent edge and hold it forever - through knots, prying, whatever. They are even the exact same size and shape as my other japanese chisels. Sounds great right? Not exactly. When I use them they chop great, but they don't cut as crisply and cleanly and my regular japanese chisels, I can't clean the sides of my mortices without reaching for something sharper. When timberframing my shop, I found I'd rather use my white steel japanese atsu (big) chisels and stop to sharpen once or twice a day than settle for what the HSS chisels could deliver.

I experienced no chipping with my white steel timber chisels. I stopped to sharpen them as soon as I couldn't pare the sides or ends of a mortice cleanly anymore - if I just wanted to chop I could have easily kept going. I think dull chisels lead to chipping because you have to work too hard then to get the chips out. With a sharp chisel there isn't much prying needed.

For a paring chisel I want ultimate sharpenability, toughness hardly matters. High purity, high carbon steel, something with 1.2 to 1.5% carbon seems to work best if treated properly.

I gave some samples of modern US edge steels to my japanese blacksmith mentor. He did a simple test involving hardening, tempering, and checking the resulting brittleness through the tempering color range for each of the steels. He didn't know what any of them were. 1095 he said maybe a kitchen knfe or hammer, 01 and W1 he said would make a decent saw, 1.25%C swedish steel was OK for a chisel. Nothing good enough to make a plane blade or woodworking knife... Hmmmm. He took for granted stuff we can't even get here anymore.

Re: chisel steel theory

#12

Timberframe Workshop

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Dave,

The online photos of your workshop under construction seem to have evaporated with Badger Pond.

Do you have any photos of the finished shop that you could take the time to post here? I am certain that the folks here would like to see them.

Re: chisel steel theory

#13

Re: Timberframe Workshop

dburnard

>Hey Don! The shop(s - added a separate blacksmith shop along the way) are finished except for some interior and exterior trim. Took the wraps off about a month ago just before my blacksmithing teacher and friends arrived to make sure my forge got built properly. I have some photos but haven't gotten around to posting them anywhere yet - thanks for the reminder! Will try to do something later in the week.

Re: chisel steel theory

#14

Re: welding and sharpening

Jonathan Ronnow, Sweden

>Its just that Im a tool fool... like the appearance of japanese chisels, and the sharpness. So there I figured hey what if I can get both, looks and "better" steel. Not that I have any actual *need* for more or better chisels, I havent used my japanese a lot yet. But Im a tool fool... you know.

Jr

Re: chisel steel theory

#15

Re: This set

Mickey Elam

>This discussion of building chisels is really interesting. My question is: is there an instruction manual available? Perhaps those folks who are building them now have instructions that they would be willing to share? Are there books out there that provide instructions?

Re: chisel steel theory

#16

We don't need no stinkin' instructions

jim_reed@marietta

>There may be some tutorials out on the web, but I just started out with what I wanted to use. My experience with *store bought* chisels is not too good. They are OK for carpentry and light paring, but heavy mortise work seems beyond most. They are either too lighweight or too soft. Also the handles are OK for carpentry or paring, but I like a he-man grip on a mortiser.

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.