scrapers and smoothing planes

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I'm sure someone more experienced will pitch in here soon.However,you are in the doorway of a whole new world. Handplanes have to be learned. I'm sure you can pick one up and if you're lucky get a good surface but it helps if you know more about them.The Handplane Book by Garrett Hack is a good resource for starters.Be careful though,this is a very slippery slope. You may never find your way out.

Any smooth plane should do the job for you.I very seldom use sandpaper. Once you learn the use of planes and scrapers it becomes unnecesary except in a very small way.Scrapers are something else you should learn to master.You'll use them all the time once you do.Good luck.---Jack

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes *LINK*

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I can't say enough good things about a LV scraper plane but a good cabinet scraper is all you need.


http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=46266&category=1%2C310&SID=&ccurrency=1

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I personally don't have anything against "crutches" when woodworking. I think the Veritas hand scraper holder should work well to eliminate the errors in angle. It also should make the work much less tiring to the hands.

Generally the smaller planes (#s 2,3 and 4) are considered smoothers. However some people tune up the jack plane (#5) with a tight mouth and a sharp iron and smooth with it too. Remember to get the iron as sharp as you can and ease the corners of the iron with extra pressure when final honing to reduce the sharp edge line a plane with a straight honed iron can create. Once you become more proficient you can add scraper planes to the arsenal. JR

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Mark S. in Chalfont, PA

>Hi Jane,

I just got my St. James Tool scraper plane. Although I have not gotten in enough hours to become proficient at using it, I still got a smooth surface on a cedar chest I'm working on. I feel it was a good investment. I still love my regular scraper. I still need much practice.

good luck,

Mark

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Hi Jane. I'm finishing a project in hard maple and noticed something for the first time. I was using a #7 with a fine mouth to finish join a 7' molding ledge (base). As I planed, I'd sight down the surface to check how I was doing and that's when I saw my car reflected in the surface of the maple. My garage door was open & I was planing out towards the open door. My car was parked in the driveway & I swear I saw its reflection in the planed molding. Now, I don't think that will ever happen with sandpaper ;>)!!

My point is that maybe a good smoother, er polishing plane, will accomplish what you want. What the heck, get LV's scraping plane and their 4 1/2 and you can give us a review/comparison!

Maybe that's why some of the old timers called their smoothers 'polishing' planes??

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Andrew Frank

>The scraper to me is great. It is fun to use. It is very economically useful in the shop. Sand paper gets worn out, and a scraper can last almost forever. I had alot of trouble learning how to get the burr on it. At first, i had to hold it at a steep angle and by the time i was done, all my knuckles left blood marks on my white oak! But once you learn it, is a fun tool to use. Olny thing is it gets too hott to hold somtimes!

I'm not sure it matters (as far as surface prep ..

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>for finishing is concerned).

Hi Jane -

Boy I'm in trouble now. First, let me say that I have limited experience in making furniture, and I have even less experience with finishing.

But at our last Guild meeting one of the guys brought in a 5/4 12"x12" piece of mahogony that had been ripped into four equal thicknesses. One he sanded, one he hand planed, and one he scraped (I can remember how he prepared the fourth one). Then he divided each board into five or so sections and each on he applied a different finish - one was oil only, one was wax only, one was shellac, one was lacquer, and so on. Each differently surfaced board was finished with an identical pattern of finishes.

When you compared the like sections of the various boards - i.e. oil to oil, wax to wax and so on, I virtually couldn't tell a difference between the boards if they hadn't been labeled. Planing, scraping, sanding - all looked the same to me (once the finish was applied).

I don't doubt that planing, scraping and sanding leave a piece of raw wood with different appearances. However, now I'm wondering once the finish is applied, did the particular form of surface prep make a difference. I'm not so sure.

We'll see what others have to say - I'm sure.

Regards -

Dave

P.S. Good luck on your scraping.

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

mike recchione

>If you're tabletop is pretty straight-grained, any well-tuned smoother with a sharp iron will do. If the cherry is figured, you're likely to get tearout with an "ordinary" plane, defined as not a high-end smoother. My smoothers are basically pre-war Stanley Baileys, pretty well tuned up and fitted with Hock irons. They handle ordinary straight-grained American hardwoods with no trouble at all, but I do get tearout on figured stuff. I have no direct experience with more expensive planes - maybe one of them would work fine.

I wouldn't use a card scraper to do a whole tabletop, not even with a holder. I'm sure that a 112 or equivalent would do the job, but I'd vote for the lowly #80. I've used my #80 on figured cherry panels with a lot of success.

And it's really not a sin to use sandpaper :-)

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Greg Sloop

>Here's my take.

I've recently gone the hand-plane route. After much discussion and thinking, I bought a low angle smoother/jack from Lie Nielsen - the #62 to be exact.

The first real project I did with it was a smallish table for my daughter out of quarter sawn sycamore. (This happens to be difficult wood to plane without tearout.)

But, here's the trick.

The 62 is a low angle plane in a standard configuration. Total cutting angle was about 37 deg as shipped. (12 deg bed and 25 deg bevel on the iron = 37 deg total)

Since 37 deg is likely to cause tearout on nearly anything, the trick was to move to a higher angle iron.

I thus have two additional blades. One is sharpened at 35 deg for a total of 47. This works quite well on many things. For the real tough stuff, I have another blade at ~52 deg for a total of ~64 deg. This handles just about anything I've thrown at it. Curly hard maple, lacewood, the QS Sycamore etc.

Lee Valley makes a very similar plane, the 62.5 and it's quite a bit cheaper.

Both of these low angle planes are easy to learn on and if sharpened reasonably well, and at the proper total cutting angle will produce really fabulous results on nearly everything.

In short, I'm likely to stay with low angle planes almost exclusively. They do everything I need, are easy to use and, IMHO, are more versatile then any other style.

As a first handplane purchase, I don't think you could go wrong.

Best wishes,

Greg

Re: short answer

paul womack

>A plane will leave a superior finish, but if and only if it can avoid tearout. Scapers give a less good finish, but are more or less tear out proof.

The normal compromise is to use both, although this can cause problem if staining, due to the resulting surface being non uniform.

BugBear

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Steve Wargo

>The bottom line is when you scrape or sand you're actually tearing the wood fiber. When you plane you are cutting or slicing the wood fibers creating a far superior finish than sanding or scraping the surface. Some peeple can't tell the difference. Some people can. What method is easiest for you and what method is acceptable by you. If your making the piece for yourself then do what makes you happy. If you're making a piece for someone else, then it only makes sense to go the extra mile and make it perfect. Hope this helps.

Re: Differant angle and ?

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I'm going to come at this from a differant angle. I have worked very little Cherry but it has been widely reported that when planed it can leave blotchy spots. Some people sat that Cherry should be lightly sanded after planing and scraping to eliminate that problem. So in your case with this top I would use a hand scraper to get the top as smooth as possable then quickly and lightly sand the entire surface to eliminate the possability of the dreded blotchy spots. A #80 is a good plane to hold a scraper blade and I sware by my LV 112 but you job can be accomplished with a hand scraper cheaper and just as good.

Now my question Thoes of you that have used Cherry and gotten that blotchy spot does it go away as the wood ages and darkens? Does the natural patina of the wood pull it in to a highlited beauty? Just a question I had while sleeping the other night.

I love my 80 too.

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Nice, inexpensive, and pretty easy to set up and use. Most of all no burned fingers! For a no hassel scraper nothin' can beat a LN 85 IMHO.

Re: scrapers and smoothing planes

Greg Sloop

>I think a properly hooked scraper doesn't tear at all. Perhaps RL will jump in here, but in my understanding cabinet scrapers, "sharpened" properly are exactly like a plane, except it should use a higher angle than say 50 deg, which should produce a Type II chip. Type II chip formation will produce better results on highly figured woods.

In my exp, use the lowest angle you can in planing anything. It's just my belief that the lower the angle you use without getting tearout produces the cleanest cut. If you start getting tearout (breaking wood fibers below the cut-line of the iron) then move to a higher angle until it stops.

IMHO, the plane seems to produce a "cleaner" cut than a card scraper on highly figured woods, but this my be related to my poor abilities with the card-scraper, either in using or rolling the edge or both.

Finally, I tend to finish with a card scraper on items I'm going to put a high gloss finish on. It removes plane tracks one can't see or feel and evens the piece out. On the most highly figured woods I've done this on, I really can't tell very much difference at all. However on say Poplar, the card scraper leaves a much worse surface. I expect this is because the poplar will plane just fine at 45 deg and the Type II chip formation in that grain wasn't beneficial.

Given I'm no expert on the theory, take this with a small grain of salt. Just a few ravings...

Cheers,

Greg

Blotches on Cherry...

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>I've used cherry in a few projects, and always gotten some blotches when finishing with oil. But in each case they have faded nicely with time... I don't think the blotches add anything though, rather wood kinds of moves towards a more uniform, dark look as it ages and the blotches just become less and less noticable... Of course, the oldest of these projects is only 3 years old, so I've no idea what'll happen in 10+ years etc.

Anyone have longer experience w/ blotchy cherry? :)

jk

Re: Blotches on Cherry...

Ernie Miller Topeka

>Thanks That is what I was thinking but didn't know

Finishing cherry

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I've had it go both ways some blotchy some not. I do a lot of projects in cherry. I've taken to putting a split coat of shelac on before the oil. No blotches anymore. As the cherry ages the blotches become less aparent.

Re: I love my 80 too.

Tony Z.

>I got to second the comment on the LN85. I had problems getting used to a card scraper (fixed that issue--not the method of using but rather the preparation to use!), so I bought a LN85. Simply great. As an aside the results from using it led me to work on learning prep on a card scraper.

Finishes Different

Doug Reynolds

>As Ernie mentioned and Mike Dresdner confirmed, if you scrape part of the project and sand another part of the project your finish will look different. Mike told me to scrape the whole project and finish or, sand the whole project.

Re: short answer

Ben Knebel

>I agree with Paul. Sanding is the least favourable final surface preperation on wood. Scraping is OK but will not leave as nice a finish as a good handplane will.

A really good smoother ( gee I wonder what kind of smoother Ben is talking about:)) will leave the finest surface and should be able to avoid tearout thus eliminating the slight surface variations you would see when using combinations of scrapers and planes.

I was recently at a demonstration by Garrett Hack and he was able to show the differences between scraped and planed surfaces with handplaning producing a noticably better surface than a scraper.

And forget machinery of any kind---it won't come close to what a handplane can achieve.

Regards

Ben