Lyn and Ellis...can we archive this? *LINK*

Re: A very long story on the way to an answer

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>To understand my answer, I'm afraid I must tell a story.

Once upon a time there was a guy who puttered with wood to make simple home repairs and the like. He once power sanded for over three weeks, standing in clouds of dust, to flatten warped boards on an old oak bookcase. He had used planes in his youth, but every time it had been a terrible experience. His junion high shop teacher had once taken pity on him and ran pieces through a stationary planer rather than see them repeatedly tortured and deformed under his hand planing attempts.

Well one day he needed to narrow a long oak board, and sanding was unrealistic for the task. He dug out a hand me down plane (Sargent Corrugated Sole Jack), and proceeded to drive and hack that plane through the wood. It was a very hard job, the blade was dull, far too extended, and sitting upside down on the frog (really), but the task somehow became appealing. The physical exertion felt good, the shavings curled (at least sometimes), there was no cloud of dust, and he could smell the odor of newly revealed wood. Right at that moment, for the first time, he appreciated hand planes and set out to master their use.

For several years he seriously studied how to tune and use hand planes (first learning not to put the blade in up side down). He left the power tool forums and started to hang out on a hand tool forum he discovered. He aquired many more planes, both because he loved them and because he was still hoping to find how he could obtain the best possible surface finish from a plane. He read peoples' opinions and stories about what was the best hand plane, and then, often, went out to buy that plane in hopes that their opinion about what was the "best" would indeed lead him to better performance. All too often, this wasn't the case.

One day he looked at the rather large stable of planes he had acquired and said to himself: "Self, you don't really know which of these is the best, which of these works better for some situations but not others. Self, you're a trained researcher, why don't you start comparing these planes objectively using the same general principles you would in your professional research investigations?" And that is what he started to do. Early comparisons resulted in writing a few reviews.

Then came a methodologically crude, but still pretty objective comparison of all the smoothers he had in his stable (along with a couple loaned by others). Real information on plane performance could be put into numbers, and those numbers could be analyzed for both obvious and subtle relationships. To his surprise, a clear relationship between effective cutting angle and surface finish became apparent among the planes that were compared on many difficult to plane woods. Other factors, like style and weigth, and width, etc. did not show such clear (if any) relationships to performance. He wrote up a description of this personal little experiment in using research methods to compare planes, and posted it to the dominant hand tool forum so that other plane users could consider what he had found out and how he had learned it.

To his surprise, a whole lot of hand tool users not only read that lengthy report, but were seriously interested in discussing it. A very large amount of traffic took place on the forum about the study, and about how and whether planes could and should be compared with objective techniques. On occasion, the talk became a bit heated, with some of those interested in objective comparison challenging both users and manufacturers to submit their claims to objective comparison. Others resisted, for any of a number of sometimes sincere and sometimes not particularly noble reasons.

Then one day, the owner of the forum, suddenly pronounced that there would be a moratorium, of indeterminate length, on hand plane reviews and comparisons. He banned further discussion on the topic, and any further formal plane reviews. So, at that time, the largests and most serious hand tool forum had just closed the door to the woodworker's reviews and investigational reports. He was at that time on his way to a new and more sophisticated investigation of desirable effective cutting angles within specific plane types. But now the work might never see significant distribution to those who might most be interested in the findings. As the forum was so dominant at the time, no other suitable alternative was apparent. There were many gloomy days.

Into that void, Roger Nixon came. He had never created a forum, didn't have the software to do so, and had no idea that he would be successful if he put great effort into trying to start one. But Roger had a personal determination that the original voice of those plane comparisons and investigations would not be silenced, even though he had never even privately corresponded with the person behind those efforts. Roger single handedly created an alternative forum with the express intent for it of offering a home for those objective comparisions and investigations. He never once indicated he wanted anything in return.

So Roger created and maintains a home for my reviews, comparisons and investigations, and now similar articles from others. At the time at which he did it, there was a certain element of courage involved that only those directly involved in what happened are apt to understand. I was and remain deeply appreciative to him for creating and maintaining that home for me. And while WC is indeed the primary home for my interactive discussions with my fellow hand tool appreciators, Roger's site will remain the sole internet repository of my current and future formal writings on hand planes.

I hope you will understand that in this decision, I mean no disrespect to or lack of appreciation for Ellis or the WC members, and I am quite happy when I see WC members linking to my articles on Roger's site.

Nothing wrong with that answer imo

Dennis

>

As good a reason as I need.

Steve Kubien

>

I see now, said the blind man

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>

as he picked up his hammer and saw

Eric Hedberg

>

Nice answer Lyn...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>However, I never knew where this was...

How about a compromise...?

Perhaps a list of external links would be allowed from WC to your items at Roger Nixon's site?

I would like to make sure that your information reaches as many eyes as possible.

Just my thoughts...

The beginning of the end...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>of a once great forum. I still miss some of the ponders that haven't seen fit to join in here.JR

Re: I would very much like that...

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>but don't know if that is in keeping with the interests and policies of WC. If it is, I think it is a good way of handling the points you make. I don't wish to undermine any policies or interests that Ellis may have, so I am comfortable with any position he wishes to take on this.

Re: I would very much like that...

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Didn't like sanding or an excuse to buy more planes it all works for me. I havne't packed in my sander but it's about a year since I started using sharp tools and the work you have done to shorten the learning curve. Now if you could write the defitive book on sharpening.

Re: I would very much like that...

Tim of San Leandro

>Jim,

Have you not read Mr. Lee's book.....The Complete Guide to Sharpening? I think Lyn would be very hard-pressed to do one over Leonard.

Re: A very long story on the way to an answer

Tim of San Leandro

>Lyn,

Thanks for the response. I would call this an example of why one shouldn't be afraid to ask questions. I certainly have no problems with your stand and find it rather enviable.

Re: I would very much like that...

Dan Donaldson

>The things that Lyn does are quite different from what Leonard Lee does. Lyn is more into analyzing what makes planes work and not how to sharpen stuff.

Re: LL's sharpening book

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I agree, LL's book is quite authoritative and has been a real contribution to woodworkers of all sorts. I do, however, think it is overdue for a second edition. The fundamentals haven't changed, but some of the technology and some of the prefered practices have evolved.

It would be good to see more information on use of diamonds (fixed, to "stones", belts, disks, etc; free like in powder and slurries and even sprays). Also the newer ceramic waterstones such as the Shaptons.

I would also like to see an expanded treatment of the use and selection of honing compounds for the sort of sharpening woodworkers do.

It would be nice if he brought us up to date with power sharpening options and to what extent they are advantageous (or not).

I'd like to see a greater treatment of wet vs dry grinding, for both woodturners and flat board woodworkers. As for dry grinders, I believe it would be helpful to have an update on the new ceramic and zirconium abrasives, both in wheel and belt form.

It would be helpful to have him discuss sharpening and care of the newer "exotic" steels that are now commonplace in woodturning and becoming more available in woodworking.

I'd like to see a second opinion on Brent's findings on blade erosion. I'd also like to see an expanded discussion of effective cutting angles and back bevels.

So while I can't say enough good things about what is already well discussed in the book, I do very much think it is time to integrate new material into it. If LL doesn't have the time or interest, I wish he'd bring in a co-author to update the existing edition and bring out a second.

Hats off to Roger!

Brad in Ottawa

>Just wanted to publicly acknowledge Roger's contribution! He is one of the great ones!

Since he has "given up" rust hunting he seems to be proving to us that he can *actually* use his hand tools!

Thanks Roger!!!!

New spot for Lyn's articles

Roger Nixon

>Thanks for the kind words. Actually, I'm disappointed I don't have the ability or knowhow to really showcase Lyn's work the way I would like. Please notice I have placed Lyn's articles in what I hope will be an easier to find location. Go to www.traditionaltools.us and follow the links from there.

The articles are still on the ipowerweb server as well but I'm in the process of moving forums and all the content to the traditionaltools.us site.

Re: LL's sharpening book

Tim of San Leandro

>agree....but this is a "problem" or a property of technological advancement.

In the past 10 years, we've made as much progress or moreso than in the past 100 years.....hard for the experts to write quickly enough to keep up : ).

to his deaf wife...

Steve Kubien

>

Re: LL's sharpening book

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>I would agree with you completely Lyn. Leonard Lee's book is the definative work on sharpening for woodworkers. Maybe we can lean on Rob Lee to lean on his Dad to do an update. After all he is "retired" now and should be able to break loose some time for the research and writing. On the other hand, maybe he justs wants to spend some time in the shop, something we all strive for. Asking would never hurt.

Re: A very long story on the way to an answer

Ernie Miller Topeka

>Great answer I remember the days of darkness and doom. I have allways enjoyed you reports even though some times they are to technical for my febal mind. I read and try and comprehend them as much as possable. I must also thank Roger for his site that has so much information well maintained.

Re: LL's sharpening book

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Last I had heard, he "retired" to start up and run a new company which makes innovative "hand tools" for surgeons. It is called "Canica." I wracked my brain to figure out what this name mean, like the Veritas name, but it turns out he just liked the sound of it and that it had "Can" (i.e. Canada) in it.

I have one of his high tech scalpel blade holders, and have seen the brochure for a table top system for holding tissues apart for complicated hand surgery. The brochure is particularly graphic and not for the faint of heart, but must really appeal to surgeons.

Re: A very long story on the way to an answer

Tony Z.

>Can someone post the link to Roger's site?

Re: A very long story on the way to an answer

Roger Nixon

>I have just emailed Lyn. If he and Ellis are willing, I would be very pleased if Lyn's articles were hosted here.

I am touched by Lyn's consideration for me but my main purpose in starting a website was to ensure his work would be available. Putting it here would make it more available and easier to access for more people and would not hurt my feelings at all.

Re: A very long story on the way to an answer *LINK*

Brad in Ottawa

>Check out a couple posts above you in this thread. There is a post by Roger (Nixon) detailing some changes to the site and where to find Lyn's articles.

If you haven't read the articles they are a great resource!!!

Brad


http://www.traditionaltools.us

They will stay where they are unless you throw...

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>me out.