What happened to Stanley

Re: What happened to Stanley

deanj

>Hard to say what really happened, other than the market for hand tools changed a lot since Stanly was in its heyday.

For what it is worth, you should look at the old Stanlys you see on Ebay, many of them are fine tools with a little TLC. If you'd rather get right to work and not spend as much time tuning your tools then Lee Valley (Veritas planes), Lie-Nielson, and Clifton all make great tools that will last a lifetime. It is too bad you can't get a fine hand tool at the big boxes, but the market dictates what is sold there.

Welcome to the hand tool world, may your trip be as fun as it has been for me.

Re: What happened to Stanley

Tom MacGregor, Vermont

>A few years ago I had a chance to talk to a guy that used to work for Stanley and asked him about the low quality of their modern planes. He told me that they once did a study that found that the majority of their planes were purchased as gifts & given to people who didn't use them. They felt that there were not enough people willing to pay for the old style quality to make it worth manufacturing them to that standard. Look at the price of a good modern plane & picture the average clueless person buying one down at Ace Hardware. I tell people I have 140 planes in my collection and they want to know why I'd want that many of the same thing.

Re: What happened to Stanley

Paul Kierstead

>Umm...140 planes? Err...well, uh, you have to admit, the question might have *some* merit :)

Post WW2/Levittown=Stanley's demise

Joe Hurst

>Chuck-

The neat thing about tools is that they're sort of a time capsules...I don't know if the times made the tool, or tools made the time, or if it's a little of both.

Anyway, I think a lot of collectors/users will agree that Stanley made a downturn just after WW2.

One reason was the explosion in cheap housing. Returning GI's were spending what little $$ they had on inexpensive homes, and starting families. Not surprisingly, these "can do" guys were also tackling repairs, renovations and additions, etc. Stanley's handyman line was designed for the original weekend warrior...the kind of guy who needed an affordable tool to trim a door or window, but might not need that plane again for a long while.

Inexpensive power tools also took attention away from hand tools. When power saws, planers, etc. hit the jobsite, the need for handtools declined. Power tools were not only faster, but required less skill to use. Plus, they were flashier.

...Of course, early power tools weren't nearly as precise as their handtool'd competition, but architectural details were simplified to accomodate quick and dirty construction (in my opinion).

You can also think of it as a "lower common denominator" situation. Stanley chose to make a simpler, cheaper tool that would appeal to a larger number of consumers. Sadly, a smaller number of die-hard users lost out.

Ironically, I think this strategy wound up losing the customers they hoped to gain. As these tools declined in quality, users found other (power) tools that performed better. I think Stanley was also in the power tool business at that time...in that case, one division was forced to compete with the other.

-Joe

Re: What happened to Stanley

Rob Lee

>Hi -

Most of your answer is in other posts here...but I'll add a few comments....

1) There's more than 1 "Stanley"...Stanley UK makes the #90 etc. - but quality is dropping just as fast...

2) Net margin is greater with high volume low cost products, than with low volume high cost products...(the market's much larger, and mostly isn't concerned with the quality)

3) Production is moving to countries with less strict (or no) environmental laws...

4) Traditional quality firms are being purchased by conglomerates, "rationalized", and re-targetted at big box store markets (see #2)

5) Stanley probably sells more garage doors (or openers) in a month, than they would planes in several years (see #2)

I could go on - but then I'd have to ratchet up the cynicism level...

Cheers -

Rob

Please go on...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>Personally Rob, I'm interested in your opinion...for no other reason than for just plain knowledge.

...

Re: Please go on...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>To finish my thought... it's rare that we hear of the thoughts and opinions of those who are "higher-up" in the tool world with respect to these aspects of our chosen career/hobby.

To re-iterate, I'm interested...

:)

Re: What happened to Stanley

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>Uh Rob, what you might choose to view as cynical, the rest of us might view as only a realistic point of view. As an example,here are a couple of realist's views of paranoia.

Paranoia: a heightened awareness of reality

Yes I'm paranoid, but am I being paranoid enough?

I don't think anything happened to Stanley!

dennis mcdonaugh

>Its my understanding that Sanley Rule and Level set out to be the "tool box" to the world by offering inexpensive tools to the masses. If I'm not mistaken, Stanley was not top of the line quality in 1900 just as they are not today. In fact, you might make the argument that Stanley is positioned in exactly the same place today that they were at the turn of the century. What has changed is the way we build and the tools we require to do it.

No, No ;-)

Dan Donaldson

>The only mistake was using the "collection" word. I am sure he really meant "stable" of user planes. I am sure that all of them have a purpose and are really necessary. (Said as I fall farther and farther down the slope ;-))

Changes in what is "standard"

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>When hand tools were how you did work, the "standard" grade tools had to be high enough quality to get the work done. This is why the old Stanley tools are decent tools while the new ones are canoe anchors.

However, I think there's another factor at work. I like the Cro-Magnon tools - the old shiny aluminum ones - and notice that the consumer grades of these old tools are better built, in many cases, than current consumer grades. I can't imagine a 2004 B&D or Craftsman electric drill still being usable in 50 years, but my go-to drills, when I need to plug one in, are nearly that old.

Engineering, a friend of mine once told me, is the science of producing what is required, at the quality required, at the lowest possible cost. A lot of tools are being engineered to uselessness because the standard of quality is too low or not understood.

Re: I don't think anything happened to Stanley!

Bob Nelson

>Dennis qualifies his comments with an "If I'm not mistaken." I think he is mistaken. The pre-1900 Stanley R&L did many rotten things to beat down their competition and to achieve their status, but they did make high quality tools. Bob

Re: What happened to Stanley

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I don't know if I have that many or few? but My wife ask that question all the time. and she knows that there are very few planes down in the cave that are alike. She knows that If I have unneed duplicates that I will sell them off to purchase ones I don't have. The sweet girl even brought home a half doxen 750's and everlast from a sale the other day knowing I have a thing for chisels.

The headcount

jim_reed@marietta

>As long as you know how many you have, the collection is under control. Things only get out of hand once you lose count. As for me, I have , er, um, a *few* planes.

JR, who lost count a long time ago.

Corporate motto?

Bob Hackett

>"If you can`t meet the standards then lower the standards."

Or how about "The pinnacle of mediocrity"

No,wait,I think I`ve got it!"STANLEY,because you expect too much".

Mainely,Bob-proud to be living in the past.

Re: What happened to Stanley

Michael Campbell

>How does other countries' lack of environmental "awareness" affect the quality of something made there?

Re: The headcount

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Aww, come on; once you lose count? I did that a couple years back and I've only been buying tools a couple years. I figure once my house is repossessed because I spent all my money on tools, then I've got a problem; roof over my head, no problem.

NEVER count your planes

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>If you don't count them, you can honestly avoid answering the question, "So, how many of these things do you already have at home, anyway?"

Re: What happened to Stanley

Rob Lee

>Hi -

It doesn't, necessarily - but it's one of the factors which induces plants to move - particularly in the woodworking industry, where many of the firms have outdated plants and equipment.

Cheers -

Rob

Re: Please go on...

Rob Lee

>Christopher -

I do have to save something for catalog letters.... :)

Will give one or two more quick ones, but stop me if I start sliding into a rant...

Shrinking Market - I believe woodworking, as a hobby/skill is probably at its peak with the current generation. Manual "trades" are disappearing from the educational system, and there are more competitive choices now for leisure activities...we just aren't planting as many woodworkers as we used to...gonna be a poor harvest down the road. OTOH - what's left will be a complete polarization - a very low end, and a high end.

In terms of housing - I think the North American market will begin to move closer to what the European market is - more "sophisticated" in terms of space utilization, and with greater investment in hardware, both in variety, and quality. On this continent - there's always been an implicitly positive size/quality relationship... a bigger car is a better car, a bigger house is a better house, a bigger router ... If there's a move to somewhat smaller spaces, there will also be a move to more careful consideration of what is used in those spaces. It may change what people want to produce in terms of woodwork, in addition to influencing the space available to do it in. Essentially - I think the market will move to "better" instead of "more".

Right now - I'd expect that the market in China will be the next "sweet spot" for the hand tools industry (and all the more reason to produce in that market) - incomes are rising (and standard of living) and there's a tremendous amount of construction going on. 1/4 of planet's population is one heck of a market - and this is a population well acquainted with handwork.

Enough prognostication for now... got a meeting coming up!

Cheers -

Rob

Re: I don't think anything happened to Stanley!

Todd Hughes

>Actually stanley tools in 1900 were not considred inexpensive but were actually quite a bit more expensive then the tradtional wood planes they soon replaced.While I don't know how they compared in price to English infills I don't think infills ever even entered the picture here in the USA, [I don't think i have ever seen one that was used here] and of course Stanley and it's clones replaced them for the most part to when they went head to head.

Stanley at this time didn't owe it's sucess to selling cheap low quality tools but instead selling quality tools that people wanted, and was willing to pay for, because they performed better then other tools avaiable at this time .....Todd

Re: NEVER count your planes

Tom MacGregor, Vermont

>It's OK, that was actually an estimate arrived at while wearing a new pair of trifocals, so who knows the real number? Besides I'm doing some valuable research into how many different clones of the Stanley 100 & 101 were made and by how many makers. I'm up to 41 copies from 5 countries by over 3 dozen manufacturers made from 1902 (a Marples) to a Kunz bought new last week. Hey, someone has to do it.

Re: Strange?

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I don't know how many I have but I do know what I have? strange isn't it? Any way I buy every good plane I come across at a reasonable price either keep it or move it on to a person who will. I am now at the point in my life where I can pay what I have to for the planes I don't have and want. or need I never pay retail befor I need it as I may stumble across it at a bargin.

Re: I don't think anything happened to Stanley!

Eric Lund

>I don't think he was saying that Stanley didn't make quality tools. Quality tools were in demand, so Stanley filled a need. What he did say was that Stanley didn't make the best tools. Is there anyone here that honestly believes a Stanley #4 is a better smoother than a Spiers #7 or a Norris #6 (Just to name the POPULAR infills). And just as Spiers and Norris were making better tools than Stanley, there were almost certainly the "Holtey" equivalents of that period, of which I know nothing at all.

One should also consider that, while Stanley was the volume leader, there was competition. I'm certainly no historian on the subject, but I'm aware that Stanley swallowed many a competitor over the years, often to acquire their patents. One of the reasons for acquiring those patents is the very early Stanley planes were really, at best, carpentry tools (This was by design). IIRC, it was the acquisition of the Bailey patents that raised the quality of Stanley planes to a quality woodworking tool.

Stanley tools were not cheap. But they were not premium tools either. They were priced relatively a bit higher than today's Lie Nielsons, but for the time, they were competitively priced. Hence they sold many.

Calling the Stanleys the best of their day to me seems the same as those who call Lie Nielsons the best of today. I always wonder what Mr Holtey, Mr Clark and Mr. Williams think of such statements, not to mention Mr. Knebel, Mr Evans and Mr Knight.

Cheers,

Eric