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LN Chisel vs. 750

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LN Chisel vs. 750

#1

LN Chisel vs. 750

Todd Stock

>In the recent discussion on LN chisels, several folks mentioned that they could see nothing in the design or execution to merit the $50-a-pop price.

Although I had seen prototypes prior to receiving my set (with an insert claiming that it was one of the first 100 production sets, no less), I was reluctant to join the discussion without tool in hand to compare to my late '70s Double Cherries and my 750s.

The shot attached is of the 3/4" size LN and 750, and shows the one feature that justified (in my mind) the investment - very sharp, very thin, perfectly milled edges.

Compared to the 750, the LN's milling is almost delicate. When compared to my Sorby long bladed patternmakers chisels, the edges of the LNs are milled to be just a bit thinner, and taper toward the socket of the chisels, instead of towards the tip. There is no rounding of the edges, most likely because the LNs are machined to final dimensions and left unbuffed. This feature alone is worth a few hours of my time spent resquaring these edges on buffed tools.


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Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#2

How about a working comparison

Bob Hackett

>Is the steel worth $50 each?I`ve heard everyone talking about the looks and the finish.Does the way the tool work justify the price?

You mention the type of grind on the sides of the chisels.Is this the grind you would have chosen if you were the maker?Why?Does this grind make the tool work better for your type of technique?Will it work correctly thru the entire life of the tool?

I`m still looking for the answer to why these chisels are worth $50 each.

Mainely,Bob

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#3

How about a working comparison

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I'd like to know this also. Scott, I too am seeking the $50.00 ea. chisel answer.

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#4

Re: How about a working comparison

HC Sakman

>I feel that it's hard to beat Japanese chisels, such as Iyoroi that Lee Valley and some other US mail outlets sell. $ per $, they are very good value for their performance. I just wish their blades were little longer.

So, as far as LN chisels go... what's their hardness? Are they A2 steel like their plane blades?

Chico...

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#5

Re: How about a working comparison

Todd Stock

>LN says they are A-2 steel, and that the blades are RC 60-61. From the initial prep (flatten back, grind, hone), I'd say they are harder than the Double Cherries and much harder than the 750s, which says that LN probably is about right.

While I was prepping the LNs, I rehabbed an older 750 and did weekly touchup on a steel cap Stanley carpenters chisel I keep in my bags; I could really feel the difference in hardness - the LNs almost sang on the paper, while the 750 was duller feeling; the soft Stanley were 'dead.'

I'll write up a usage test when I can spend some time chopping out dovetails in some of my 'devil wood' stack - till then, here's what I see:

- All machining/grinding appears to be to around 600 grit, with no evidence of rounded over edges or buffing.

- Sides are square and tapered to around a 1/16" - nice for cleaning out dovetails without reaching for the skew. These edges are narrower than those on my super flexible patternmaker's chisels, and about three or four times narrower than either the DCs or the 750s I've owned. If you have had a chisel that tends to tear out at the corners, it's likely because of rounded over arrises between back and sides - not the case here.

- Unlike the 750 and my DCs, the sides and all bevel work are finished as well as the primary surfaces.

- Unlike the 750s, the LN chisels are scaled in thickness - the 1/8" is lightly built - about half the thickness of a Stanley, while the 3/4" is actually a bit beefier than the prototype.

- I like traditional methods, and I prefer English Engineering System units for woodworking. The LNs are literally a few thou narrower than the nominal EES dimension, which is just right.

- Fist impressions are that LN got the balance about right for a bench chisel that would be used for both paring and chopping.

On the general topic of cost:

- The tool roll is very nice; figure that Woodcraft would charge about $50 if they could locate someone who could actually do the work to this standard. If you've seen LN's other leather work (I have the low angle block holder on my Oxys), this roll is nicer.

- Given credit for the tool roll, cost is more like $40 each, although I doubt I'd have ordered the roll if it were an option (I hang everything on tool boards in the shop, and travel with a set of Blue Chips).

- LN's pricing is not really out of line with other premium hand-made Western chisels - both Barr and Sorby charge at or near the $40-$50 each mark for their premium products. Sorby Cabinetmaker's octagonal handled chisels are about $43 each in sizes between 1/8" and 3/4", and the Sorbys won't hold an edge worth a darn. The Barrs are nice, but don't hold an edge any better than a DC.

- The LN chisels appear to do what almost all other LN tools do - improve on the historical prototype. As much as I've bitched about soft steel in Blue Chips, Sorbys, and some of the 750s I've owned, if these LNs hold an edge, they will be well worth the money.

- I could have spent a lot more money on getting harder chisels. While I have owned some nice japanese blades, they never fit my hand in the same way that a 750 or other well-shaped western tool does.

- No self respecting bottom feeder would ever part with $40-$50 for a chisel...and I'm cool with that.


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Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#6

While you`re comparing...

Bob Hackett

>Care to add some bottom feeder bait to the mix?I`d be willing to ship afew of my chisels to you so you could compare them all heads up.Let me know if you`re interested.

Mainely,Bob

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#7

Re: While you`re comparing...

Todd Stock

>That's a good idea, although I think we'd need more than one fella doing the evaluation. Let me get a test drive in, then I'll shoot them up your way for comparison with the best $5 (for the whole box, of course) Bucks, etc. that you can find.

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#8

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

Zack A.

>Hey. Where can you get the LN Chisels?

Could you E mail me?

Thanks

Zack A.

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#9

www.lie-nielsen.com

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>But they are not in the complete tool list yet. May need to e-mail to order.JR

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#10

I guess I'm confused...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>If the LNs are high-end, and folks wonder if they're worth the $50 per, then what about the Barr Tools chisels at $80 per?

It's all moot to me, of course, 'cause the AIs for $25 per are pushing my envelope. Dear God - does that make me a bottom feeder?!

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#11

:-)

HC Sakman

>That's funny... ;-)

Chico...

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#12

Re: I guess I'm confused...

Todd Stock

>$80 bucks for a chisel is cheap compared to some of the Japanese stuff I've seen...you know, "...quenched in 1000 year-old rice wine under the shadow of Mt. Fuji, only during the town's once-a-decade Festival of Fish Eyes...yada, yada."

By definition, buying any new tool takes you firmly out of the bottom feeder class, and by some folk's estimate, anything bought or bartered used at more than 10% of what it should have cost is not even gloatable.

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#13

Running the gamut

Bob Hackett

>You`ve got some hard held opinions of the bottom feeder realm for someone who, by his own definition, is firmly out of it by way of buying not only new tools but paying $250 for 5 chisels.

Got out from behind the screen long enough to go with SWMBO to an antique sale about 2 hours away.A laminated 2" Underhill shipwright`s chisel($10)and an incredibly ugly Stanley #7($18) followed me home.Stayed up till midnight cleaning,grinding,polishing and fettling so I don`t know if this qualifies as a gloatable buy.

I don`t know that it was really worth the hour+ that it took to get all the pits out of the back of that Underhill(some would say no)but at least I was working at something I enjoy instead of perched in front of the lobotomy box.

I do know that I`ll smile everytime I pick either of those tools up,and I`ll remember the enjoyable ride and fine day with the LOML that put those tools there.Sometimes being a bottomfeeder can be priceless.

Excuse me while I go bathe the bench dogs.Got to pay the dues for those tools somehow!

Mainely,Bob

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#14

here ya go

Mike in Mystic

>http://www.lie-nielsen.com/chisel.html

not sure why they don't have the chisels on the main list. Maybe Thomas is afraid the orders will back up too fast :)

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#15

Re: Running the gamut

Todd Stock

>Bob -

My note was in response to another post noting the rising prices of Lie-Gucci and other 'designer' tools, and the strange phenomenon of the poster feeling like a BF for only having paid $10 for a new chisel. By that def, there are a bunch of BFs out there, eh?

Todd

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#16

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

Todd Stock

>Here's the link to the chisel page at LN...

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/chisel.html

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#17

;-) :-)

HC Sakman

>That's funnier.... ;-)

Chico...

Re: LN Chisel vs. 750

#18

Re: Running the gamut

Bob Hackett

>Todd,

Don`t let me push any buttons here.I`m just another guy who likes to talk about WWing and the tools involved in it.

Behind all the satire I really DO want to know if the LN chisels are something that reflects thier cost while in working mode.Even more than if,I`d like to know why,should they prove to be the top dog in the chisel yard.

Japanese chisels excell in paring mode but thier edges can be fragile.Bill T has experimented with and tested a type of particle steel that seems to be very interesting and could put chisels with an exceptionally keen,durable edge within most WWer`s grasp.Barr has a nice fit,finish and balance as do the LNs.I prefer to chase the old rusty iron and bring it back.I`m sure everyone out there who reads these posts would love to have someone sort it out and hear the truth as a rank and file WWer sees it.

I wish I had the money to go out and buy whatever struck my fancy,but I don`t.I like to think that if I hit the lottery tomorrow I`d still be a bottom feeder(with at least one English infill),but that would just be conjecture on my part.While I like to look at the eyecandy(don`t we all?)my real concern is does something deliver value for money.That`s all I`m asking here.

Mainely,Bob

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