>I too visited the blacksmith at Williamsburg, they were welding, I was amazed and asked them how and got the same superficial answer. I was similarly annoyed at the superficial answers I got at the cabient shop and gun shop that November day and never went back.
A short time later I was at Dollywood for the fall festival and curious I asked their bib overalls clad blacksmith how to weld. He took at least 45 minutes showing the details of how and what he looked for at the various stages. I still remember clearly how he could tell the metal was at the correct temperature, which he thought critical to the process. Now I never intend to practice the blacksmith arts but I appreciated the effort made to satisfy my curiosity.
Thanks for the link. I've taken a quick look at it, and it looks very interesting/helpful, but I'll take a closer look a little later. It looks like it deserves a closer read.
Looking forward to the pics. We'll probably spend a good part of the weekend down that way. But we are also likely to spend some time at Jamestown and possibly even Yorktown (we're something of early American history buffs). Also we are already planning at least one more trip to Williamsburg - possibly in the Fall. On top of that my wife has given me the green light to attend the Williamsburg Woodworking Seminar in January - assuming the topic is somewhat related to any of the many projects I have in the hopper.
There's a lot to be said for your "just do it" post. Also I do have rather low expectations realizing that either the interpreters or my family may not allow for the kind of discussion I'd like to have.
That being said, I think different people learn in different ways. I see that in the people with whom I work and I see it in my own kids. I think some people learn best by seeing something done, some people learn best by hearing or reading it explained, and some people learn best by doing (and this is not a complete list). I also think everyone learns by all of these methods - they just learn best by one of them.
None of this takes away from your point - the value of learning by doing (regardless of your preferred way of learning). Just some of us like to collect as much information as possible before and during the doing of it. What luck do you think I'd have if I walked down to the forge at the end of the street and tried my hand at forge welding when I've never even lit a forge fire or held a forge hammer?
I'm the slow head here. I appreciate your echoing Todd's "just do it" philosophy. However, when you're pretty much at the beginning of a process it's hard to know whether you have an "anal fixation" or are taking a "reasonable precaution." Only time will tell - and I guess that's the point.
If folks have tried something and it doesn't work, I'd just as soon learn from THEIR mistakes. If they've tried something and it does work, I'd just as soon go to school on them (assuming they don't mind).
In some respects it seems to me that places like WC are where many of us who are new to woodworking do our apprecticeships. You, Todd and many others are the Masters of the crafts. Sometimes its useful to have folks say, "just go do it;" other times its useful to have folks says; "try it this way;" and other times its useful to have folks say, "no, no, not that way slow head."
>We also went to Jamestown. There are 2 places to see, the Jamestown Settlement, which is like CW in that they have demonstrations and interpreters. They also have replicas of the boats that brought the first settlers over. It's a nice 1/2 day. Then there's the Jamestown National Park, which is where the actual settlement was. Right now there's an excavation going on. We didn't get a chance to see that.
The kids got a little "historied" out, so we went to Busch Gardens one day, too.
My wife and I would eventually like to see Yorktown, and the Decorative Arts Museum and the Folkart Museum at CW. Next trip we're staying an extra day.
Unfortunately I only got one good shot of the cabinetmakers shop. If you go, check out their benches. Simple but beautiful. I'd build one if I had the room. Other interesting note - since they do some repair of antique furniture, the cabinetmaker's shop is climate-controlled - AC and heat.
I think your post goes to your observation of the flexibility inherent in a bevel up design - unless I've misunderstood you.
I think Mr. Lee's point goes to the trade off that a bevel up design requires (ideal effective cutting angle (for any given application) vs. edge retention). I don't think this is a prejuducial observation. As it relates, to your post, I think it just means that there are practical limits to the flexibility of bevel up planes.
By contrast, however, unless back bevels are considered, there is little or no flexibility with the bevel down planes as the effective cutting angle is set in cast iron (by the bedding angle of the frog). So with these blades the focus is almost exclusively on edge retention.
You're not suggesting that woodworkers from Great Britain in days gone by didn't know how to sharpen their planes blades, are you?
All of the flea market planes I've found on this side of the Atlantic have come with blades that have perfectly flat, mirror polished backs, and perfectly square, crisply sharpened bevels :-)
I think that smith gave you a bogus answer because he (like me, like you maybe, like many of us perhaps) wasn't smart enough or perceptive enough to realize what specifically he was doing that caused his results.
In regards to sharpening, I think guys thought they were getting 25 degree angles, but because of their dished stones, and stropping, they were really getting a rounded edge with a 30-35 degree angle. I think their technique created the micro bevel L.Lee was talking about. They just used a different technique which may have been doing something unperceived, unintended.
Here's another example for Dave to consider:
The Hay shop has no cross cut saws. Headley says they are too hard to sharpen (Hooey). When I asked how they crosscut with rips saws he said, "Oh, its not a problem" (Hooey)
Now I haven't been there in many, many years, but I'd wager that their rip saws have high rake angles, and that they knife all around before sawing or may shoot the end grain afterwards. Rest assured they are doing something to ameliorate the use of rip saws for crosscuts.
My advice to Dave is, take pictures or video. Listen to their words and smile, but watch their hands. You may get two different stories.
I had the same experience (but not with welding). We visited the blacksmith at CW last time and a number of people asked some good questions, but only got superficial answers. Later we were at the forge at Jamestown and the smith there was more than happy to give much more detailed answers.
>I think too that there are people who are good at what they do and others who are good teachers, not all are both. I must admit, my wife paid a bunch of money (anniversary present) for me to attend the Mack Headley class, and I was a bit dissapointed in the teaching part. A wonderful experience that I'll always treasure and no regrets whatsoever. Actually, I'd love to take it again now that I have a bit more experience and education. I think there were folks in the class that were more advanced that go a lot more out of it. One thing I suggested on my survey was to better describe the classes (ie beginner, intermediate, etc.). I think Mack did a good job with the shell carving video. It helped me for sure.
Funny, last time I was at Wburg, the blacksmith was one of the nicest folks! Very small crowd and early morning, maybe the timing was right, dunno. We have a wonderful ornamental metal museum here in Memphis. They setup at the annual crafts fair in the fall. Those guys will talk to you all day long and show you, teach you, whatever. I don't practice any metal working at all, but its very interesting to me, so I really enjoyed the education. They teach a few classes there too, btw.
One thing I noticed about a few of the instructors I have encountered is that some of them are good teachers and know what mistakes/troubles you will have before hand. They've done it enough to know, or perhaps still remember their early days. Phil Lowe was probably the best and Lonnie Bird was pretty good too. I took a carving class from a guy at Highland Hardware, but dogonne if I can remember his name, he was fantastic. He mentioned wanting to teach more classes on cabriole leg knee carving and b&c carving, but I've never seen him in their schedule again.
Oh well, I hope that the Williamsburg folks remember their charter. I noticed Bill mentioned Dollywood, I've been wanting to visit there to see the crafts people. Its just down the road, so I guess I'll get up there someday.
>Dave, at the end of this year's FWW Col Williamsburg seminar they discussed potential topics for next year and seemed to be leaning towards case furniture. I strongly reccomend you go no matter what the topic- this year's was grandfathers clocks- while I have no interest in ever making a tall case clock, I still learned quite a bit. Mack Headley usually does presentations each day and answers questions during breaks. The music shop woodworkers are always very funny and informative also.
I think Mr. Lee's point goes to the trade off that a bevel up design requires (ideal effective cutting angle (for any given application) vs. edge retention). I don't think this is a prejuducial observation. As it relates, to your post, I think it just means that there are practical limits to the flexibility of bevel up planes.
You only sacrifice edge retention if you want to cut at an effective angle below ~32 deg. Only a chisel with a hone of less than ~32 deg would get you lower cutting angles but still have better edge retention.
Perhaps I'm misuderstanding something or perhaps I'm picking at nits, but a limit at ~32 deg doesn't seem a "practical" limit but rather a technical limit, that is of little impact practically.
I've never tried it, but I assume you could go upwards of 90 deg at the high end. (Don't really know why one practically would, but it's possible I suppose.)
>No need for apology at all, I was just being a bit cranky yesterday.
And I think you state it well that issues of edge retention do limit the ultimate range of practical effective cutting angles. In my investigation, which was mostly done with denser woods, the lower practical limit for moderately dense woods was a 20 degree bevel, but for the very dense woods, the lower limit was in the 25-30 degree range. I had two samples of purpleheart that would literally rip apart the edge of a 20 degree A2 blade in one pass. On less challenging woods, the 20 degree blade (effective cutting angle of 32 degrees) was just a delight to move through the woods and often left an excellent surface.
So yes, the range of possible effective cutting angles has a lower limit based on blade edge retention, and also the bedding angle of the plane itself. Most bevel up smoothing and Jack planes have the bed set at 12 degrees, which likely approaches the limit of cast iron in these applications, and also the ability to accommodate adjuster mechanisms and rear totes in the length of a smoothing plane.
In shoulder planes, however, the bedding angle is often more like 18 degrees. With a 25 degree primary bevel, this gives a 43 degree effective cutting angle. Hardly the low angle that folks tout for cutting endgrain (though fine for cleaning rebates). To Lee Valley's credit, their Shoulder plane uses a bedding angle of 12 degrees, allowing for some true low effective cutting angles to slice through endgrain.
Back closer to topic, I just wanted to emphasize that within the range of effective cutting angles which can be achieved with an available bevel down blade (i.e., approximately 45-65 degrees) the bevel up plane (which for the same range would have blade bevel angles of 33 degrees or more) will have no more issue with edge retention than the bevel down blade.
Frankly, I wish my earlier post had just been the above paragraph.
Let me be upfront. I lack the experience and technical background to give you a informed answer to your question.
That said, I will still offer an observation. Unless I misunderstand you (and I may well) you are suggesting that a 32 effective cutting angle (or there abouts) is not a substantial or important limit on bevel up planes (in terms of the balance between the effective cutting angle and edge retention).
However, for a low angle, bevel up plane with a 12 degree bedding angle, that means the bevel on the blade will be ground to 20 degrees.
Correct me if I'm wrong but edge retention is a function of (at least) the nature of the steel in the blade, the manner in which it is heat treated, the type of wood you're up against, the blade bedding angle and the bevel angle on the blade.
There have been enough references here at Wood Central on edge failure of 25 degree Blue Chips (in contrast to Swans, Witherbys, early Buck Bros, etc) to underscore that the nature of the steel and its heat treatment are key issues in edge retention.
Similarly there are quite few folks who complain about what purpleheart and cocobolo (as opposed to eastern pine or fir) do to their blades to know that the type of wood you're up against is also an felevant consideration.
I guess all I'm saying is (and take with with a grain of salt and a huge dose of skepticism) I'm not sure one can be arbitrary about the ideal effective cutting angle for a bevel up blade (in terms of it trade off with blade retention), but that the "ideal" angle is likely to vary with the nature of the steel in the blade, the manner in which it is heat treated, the type of wood you're up against, blade bedding angle as well as the bevel angle on the blade.
Just my thougths -right now - might be different latter :-)
>I once worked with a welder from Russia who could weld vertical with 7024 rod.He ran the bead downhand but it was still an accomplishment.He told me it took him 15 years to finally get the hang of it.I didn`t have the heart to tell him that 7024 was designed to weld flat.
I guess if you devote time and practice on anything it can become possible,even if it wasn`t designed to do it from the start.Sure seems like the time could be better spent somewhere else though.
The other thing that bothers me is that if it`s not a big deal to have flat stones then why do you suppose the people who actually make Arkansas stones go to all that trouble(not to mention expense) to make `em flat in the first place?Must be to show off all that nice grain when you put the oil to `em.
>Very strange--how peoples' experiences can differ.
I was at Williamsburg at the beginning of summer when the temperature was over 100f and plenty of vacationers and their children were milling around. It was a day when tempers and patience could easily be quite short. But I experienced none of the shortness or superficiality that you guys did.
In the blacksmiths' shop I asked the only smith in there, who was making nails, about tempering. He put down his work, put an iron in the forge, and explained all about tempering as he demonstrated; he even brought the iron over to show me the exact color he was looking for at the two critical stages. For a minute or two I actually thought I could do it.
I had similar experiences at the silversmiths, the gunsmiths, and a place they cast flatwear. The fellow who was polishing some flatwear--the only one in the shop--also put down his work to show me what the various metals and the raw castings looked like, and to talk about what they do so their work isn't confused with genuine antiques.
In the Hay shop two fellows were working on a harpsichord (very exacting and time consuming work). Even though there was a third worker who was answering questions, one of them stopped work to chat with me about cutting veneers and to show me the frame saw they used for veneers and the great wheel lathe.
Generally speaking, everyone I talked to was helpful--and took as much time as I liked--to talk with me. I had a great time; I would very much like to visit again.
>I think he means the angle between the bevel (bezel) on the blade and the surface of the wood. If this angle is too small, the bevel is effectively pressed against the surface of the wood and the edge will not cut into the surface.
>I think what I'm saying is that it is a limit, but that it's a limit that will exist in any plane that holds any iron.
I'm getting myself all confused too...
I was simply saying that having a holder for the blade/iron would offer some limits, but that the bevel up design appears to me to offer the least restricive set of limits.
I think I mistakenly thought you were implying that the bevel down design offered better edge retention than bevel up.
Yet, and my bad, anything that elevates the cutting face of the iron up in angle from the face of the wood is going to mean a reduction in the edge retention at the same effective angle. I think this was your point, and I agree.
I think I'll shut-up now and slink back into my "spider-hole" with my tail betwixt my legs... :)
