When do you choose LA over 45 degrees?

Re: Svs T (totally and completely OT)

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Had one of each. Actually I've had two turbocharged cars and my wife currently has a supercharged little Mercedes two seater.

Based on her car, I'm really impressed with the smooth torque curve which reaches down low and just carries on to the top. Never thought I'd see the day a supercharger would be in a street car, let alone one so well mannered.

See, I can begin to pontificate on almost anything, must be associated with advanced age. :-)

This thread must be approaching a record for breadth--lets see, Volkswagans, Porches, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Ouzzies, AK-47s, and oh yes, planes.

Re: Skill development

Peter Ulmanis

>Well said Lyn!

I guess that's one of the reasons I like this forum, the abundance of that oximoron, common sense.

My take on advice is to listen, think, and try if it makes sense. I believe that the great majority of people really have no idea why they are successful in some respect and can't explain how you can be successful too, even though many try.

Re: The power of Lyn

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>We could have a poll of the handtool forum readers. Minority viewpoints could be illustrated in percent ages, i.e.,

BEST FIRST CHISEL SET TO BUY

Two Cherries - 67%

Lie-Nielsen - 10%

Barr - 2%

etc.

Wiki?

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>

Disagree, but not with opinion...

Eric Hedberg

>Lyn,

I agree with you on the supercharger although fate has not provided me the opportunity to own such a sweet ride...yet. I disagree with you on the point of advanced age. I think you fall in the camp with those of us who compulsively absorb information aka Cliff's Syndrome (Cheers) while derided by some as pontification it is clearly the reflection of advanced intellect and insatiable curiosity ;-) This begs the question, though, what is the average airspeed of a coconut laden sparrow, European or African?

Eric

Who also loves to "pontificate" on architecture, Star Trek, mechanical musical instruments, and the sweet sound of a 440 6-pack 'cuda ragtop on a summer day.

When applied to motorcycles...

Bob Hackett

>Turbo is the way to go.You have a very well behaved bike until the boost comes on,then it`s hang on till either you lose your nerve or the weakest link in the drivetrain becomes apparent.

The best part about a turbo bike is that you can put all the stock parts back on(cam,carb,exhaust,etc.) and then just use the turbo on the next bike.

Mainely,Bob-Who`s thinking about bikes again,when he should be thinking about WWing.Thanks guys.:^(

Re: The power of Lyn

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I'm not fond of polls of this nature.

First, they convey nothing of the "why" of the decision, nor provide any factual or objective information about the tool itself.

Second, there is no way of knowing to what extent the votes represent actual use of the tool in question, or any experience with multiple tools in the category. There is no way of knowing how many votes are cast based only on a belief the item or technique is good, because other forum members have previously endorsed it, or because they read a good magazine review, or solely because the company has a reputation for quality.

Third, a poll like this is skewed by the accessibility (price, availability, etc) of the tool. An expensive limited production tool like the Barr of your example, might obtain few votes simply because few woodworkers have used one, rather than because of its actual performance relative to the others.

Finally, a poll is inadequate in describing the strengths and weaknesses of a tool relative to its application and price. As most know, I really like Sorby chisels, though others down grade them in terms of edge retention. I rarely strike these tools with a mallet (I have others for that), and don't mind sharpening. I do care a lot about balance and comfort in my hand. Another person may primarily use a chisel for chopping dovetails, be trying to acquire only one set of chisels, and find sharpening to be a tedious chore. For them, edge retention may be a much more important factor than balance or comfort or not having the tool roll off the bench. This sort of information cannot be effectively conveyed in a poll.

Frankly, I think it is very rare that a single tool stands out in all respects beyond its peers. Thus a selection must be based by balancing many factors, including price, availability, ergonomics, quality of construction and materials, etc. Polls just aren't a good way to capture this information.

Re: When applied to motorcycles...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Lyn...Buick has supercharged a recent large front wheel driver. Probably not as asphault gouging as the Merc. but an impressive version none the less. And I personally installed a 150 hp supercharger kit on a 2004 Escalade that really had the other techs in the shop shaking their heads. It just takes money to play.

Bob...turbo bikes are just too radical to dream of riding. The hard things around you when you ride approach fast enough as is :-)JR

Re: When do you choose LA over 45 degrees?

Bob Hackett

>Am I the only one who thinks it`s ironic that we can all agree that when whatever plane you use fails to give acceptable results we all reach for the same tool?

That would be a card scraper,usually less than $10 total(almost zero $ if you like to recycle handsaws).

Mainely,Bob

Looking for the magic bullet

Bob Hackett

>Most WWers are looking for this tool that will work like an extention of thier hand,straight from the box, after only alittle light honing.Unless you`re exceptionally lucky,it`s a holy grail kind of mission.

Tool manufacturers make tools that will fit the widest crossection of thier target market.Like anything else that was designed to fit everybody,it ends up fitting few exactly.

The answer is to do your homework and understand,as well as you can,how and why a tool works.Lyn`s studies and the books Lyn mentions are part of the course.Once you have absorbed the how and why then you can buy what comes closest in the here and now.LV uses this understand,then design approach on a regular basis.Look at thier new planes to see what I mean.

Taking it one step further,approach all tools as a starting point.Buy an infill kit and match it to your hand.Do what most turners do and buy unhandled chisels and gouges and make your own custom handles.Reread all Bob Smalser`s and Bugbear`s info on making your own tools and put thier knowledge to use after custom tailoring it to fit both your hand and the way you work.

If you belong to the "pretty tools inspire pretty work"camp( I lean heavily that way)then learn how to work figured or exotic woods by making tools from them.Order that infill kit with gunmetal sides and be glad you spent the extra money and time smoothing and polishing the final product.The old craftsmen used thier toolboxes and the contents to advertise the mastery of skills in thier chosen craft without saying a word,it was apparent for anyone who cared to look.Tradition still has(or should have) a valuable place in most things we do.

Cecil Pierce taught me to respect and care for every tool that passed thru my hands.He also taught me not to be afraid to modify a tool if need be to either make it perform better or just feel better and allow me to use it comfortably for longer periods of time.These things became important to him as he only had 4 fingers and 2 thumbs.That fact never slowed him down or diminished the quality of his work.

I`ve posted about the sign in Cecil`s shop before.It basicly went along with this skills are first frame of mind.He believed it wasn`t so much the tools as it was the hands that held the tools.He also agreed with Ghandi when he said that by making useful things a man makes himself.A man defines himself by the work that he does.

We work the best we can with what we have before us.By knowing how to make the most of our tools and what they offer we bring forth the best in ourselves.We are really only in peril when we allow ourselves to be satisfied with what we currently use and produce and stop looking toward improvement.

How`s that for elucidation(or is it pontification,I always get those two confused)?

Mainely,Bob

Re: The power of Lyn

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Perhaps you are right - I was thinking about the problem of responses that are not based upon experience while I was piling rocks and dragging things around in the yard yesterday.

However, one cannot deny that there are repeated inquiries on this forum for opinions as to tool selection (I must interject that my first thought when I read them is, "What do you want to do with them?"). The responses very much include the sort of opinions that some might disparage. While the poll might not be the optimum fount of hand-tool truth, I think it might be of some value, especially if the queries are well thought-out.

If nothing else, it might be interesting to see what our collective biases and opinions are!

Re: Wiki?

Greg Sloop

>From another place in the thread...

Re: Adam and a Wiki page...

In short, a Wiki page is like this...

Think of a web page that anyone can edit.

Really, anyone. (Though, I believe one could limit the circle a bit, but this tends to defeat the purpose.)

If there's not a page or topic you want, you just add a link for it. Poof, new page.

You can add sections to already existing pages, etc. It takes the power of us all and harneses it to allow us all to collaboratively make the FAQ.

This way, not just one person has to maintain and type all the material in it.

However, it does take someone to guard around the edges from radical forces - cranks and such that may cause problems. But this generally isn't too bad from what I've heard.

If anyone is truely interested, I'd be glad to put up an example set and post a link to it so people can see what I'm talking about and play with it. If it is well received, and looks like a winner, I'd be glad to host, or help move it here or elsewhere. (For the technically inclined, it really only requires PHP and MySQL - so it's easy to host nearly anywhere on a linux/unix server. Windows too if those two modules are installed on the server. [I'm talking server here, not end user's pc's])

So, if this might be something you (corporate you)think sounds interesting, how about putting a "me too" after this post - or other comment if needed.

I will, if I get a reasonable positive response, start it. But it is a bit of technical work, and I don't want to do it if no one things it sounds workable, or if you're not willing to help construct the pages. (I certainly don't have the time!)

Anyway...

Cheers,

Greg

P.S.

Since this is now so far down in the thread list, I may just do some tinkering and bring it up anyway...

Jim's question: LA v HA *not* Bevel up / down

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>Jim,

Your question, as I understood it, was not primarily about the bevel-up / bevel-down distinction, but about low-angle versus regular (and/or high-angle) smoothers. And that, I think, actually has a somewhat more straightforward answer than the former question. (which is not to take away anything from the various great answers that question generated, etc.)

There are some things that, as far as I can tell, most people agree about: e.g., for end-grain work, low-cutting angles work better *however they are achieved* (a 'bevel-down' blade mounted at 30-35 degrees or so, or a 'bevel-up' blade mounted at 12 degrees or so with a 20-25 degree bevel or so). And for very hard, dense, highly figured wood, high cutting angles often work better -- again, *however they are acheived* (a bevel-down blade at 50-70 degrees or a bevel-up blade at 12 degrees or so with a 40-50 degree bevel...)

That said, for smoothing, many people find that low angle planes can achieve wonderful results on many kinds of straight-grained, softer woods (see for example traditional japanese smoothing planes and the traditional woods they are used to plane). And many people have argued that the lowest angle plane that can plane the wood without tear-out often yields the best result in terms of surface finish -- of course, there are always exceptions, etc. Again, many people find that higher angles planes often reduce tear-out in hard, highly figured woods, but at the cost of being harder to push, and sometimes leaving a less desireable finish.

So what should you use your 164 for? As supplied, with the blade mounted at 12 degrees and a 25 degree bevel, it is truly a low-angle smoother (37 degrees), and I'm sure will provide exceptional results on many softer, straight-grained woods (and of course on end-grain). If you want to turn into a high angle smoother, get a blade ground at 40 degrees or so and go wild -- but then, it isn't a low-angle smoother anymore!

Hope this helps!

jk

great answer

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>