1st Waterstone use and some questions (very long)

Some short answers

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I keep all my stones in water and don't use any bleach. The only part that cuts is the edge so the whole bevel does not need to be polished. Micro bevel 1 degree so you can go back several times and just touch it up. You'll find keeping the 4000 and 8000 in water they cut faster. After all I don't need to spend any more time sharpening than I have to.

Re: 1st Waterstone use and some questions (very lo

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>A few thoughts for your consideration:

1. If you place a waterstone in water for a couple minutes, that's not really soaking; it's just quick prepping. Some stones that are designed not to be soaked, such as Shaptons, nonetheless must sit in water a minute or two before use. So don't worry about hurting a non-soakable stone by having it in water a few minutes. Don't know whether that's the case with yours.

2. Once you polish the back of a blade to 8000, the back should never be touched again by anything more coarse than 8000. So after you polish your microbevel, remove the wire edge only with the 8000 stone--omit the 4000.

3. When removing wire edge, move the blade across the stone in the same direction as the blade's cutting edge, or 90 degrees to the direction the blade ultimately is used in the plane. If you remove the wire edge the way most people do, you're actually causing it to snap off--like bending a coat hanger back and forth until it breaks. Moving "across" the blade instead cuts off the wire edge cleanly.

3. I'd put any microbevel at 1 or 2 degrees, not 5 degrees, unless there's some other geometry reason to do so.

Sounds like a positive experience. Joel is really good at sharpening, and IMO his advice is worth gold.

Best, Ted

Waterstones - observations from a novice

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Christopher -

Sounds like I'm only about a month and a half ahead of you. I've just moved into Norton waterstones, as well, and it is remarkable how similar our experience - and adjustments - have been.

First, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the Norton's do not need a Nagura stone. Japaneses waterstones do, but Norton's do not. I didn't get one and I'm doing fine - so far.

On water and the 4000 and 8000: like you I found that water helped with the 4000, but hurt with the 8000 (too much stiction). So, right now, I'm soaking my 4000 and using the 8000 dry. This gives me the "matted" or "frosted" finish I posted a message about a month or so ago - and is different from SS (since I'm a former SS user, as well). Some had suggested when I posted about this that you use the 8000 under a pretty regular stream of water like a faucet or a hose (presumably, outside).

On the mess: everyone's situation is different, but I too put a plastic bag down to keep water off my bench - but I put it under my float glass and built a "frame" to go around the glass - in order to more or less waterproof the process. Also I purchased a fairly large cookie sheet and do the actual sharpening there to keep the water contained.

I would say that I got 4 individual stones and not the combos and that's been a big help to me because I go through the 220 like water. Most of my blades are flea market beaters, some with pits and others with decades of abuse - and I find it's taking both time and considerable stone wear to get them in shape.

I too have followed many of Charlesworths steps from the recent FWW article. And - as a result - I'm flattening a fair amount of the backs of these blades (I know that some consider this wasted effort but this sounds like what Charlesworth does, and just this week I noticed a picture in Kingshott's book on sharpening that shows the back of one of his blades, and most of it is shiny right up to the slot, as well).

Also - again, as you did - I've just switched over to a pseudo-Eclipse style sharpening jig - because I was also having trouble getting square edges with my Veritas.

Last on soaking the stones - if you do a search and can find the comments (very helpful comments, I might add) from my post a month or so ago, you will find quite a few folks saying that they don't find much problem with cross contamination with water, and therefore you can soak the stones together. However, so far I remain cautious and soak mine separately.

Keep posting your experinces. It's great having someone going through the same things at the same time.

All the best and regards -

Dave

Re: 1st Waterstone use and some questions (very lo

Alan Hamilton

>Christopher,

When is the movie coming out? (Just kidding.)

I'm far from being an expert, but I've used waterstones since forever (I have some stones that are over twenty-five years old) and I've been happy with my results. I hope I will be helpful.

As to soaking fine grit stones: I soak mine, and always have. There's been no harm done to them, and they definitely work better. Sticktion can be trouble, but I prefer a little sticktion to inefficient or ineffective stones.

I don't soak my nagura stone. However, I momentarily dunk it in water just before I use it. I find that helps alleviate some of its sticktion. Also, because I use my nagura on both my fine stones, I wash it off before going from one stone to another.

As above, I use my nagura stone on my 4000 stone. Fine grit stones, including 3000 or 4000 stones, are so hard it takes too long to build up any slurry. I'm too lazy and impatient to work and wait.

I rub the nagura stone in little circles, moving all around the stone, and make sure I hit everywhere at least once. I don't count circles, or circuits around the stone or otherwise measure how much I use the nagura stone. Because you're making a slurry out of the stone itself, rather than the stone mixed with steel, the slurry can be a little hard to see, especially on a white colored stone. I stop when I can rub a finger over the stone and feel a slurry about the consistency of heavy cream. It doesn't take long: surely less than a minute.

I keep all my stones in the same container (except the green stone). I've had no contamination trouble. The only precautions I take are to put the fine stones on top of the coarser stones, and keep the stones from rubbing together by putting between them a bit of heavy plastic that I cut from the lid of a Cool Whip container.

I have a 240 grit "green" stone, but I very rarely use it. I use my 800 stone to re-establish bevels after too many micro-bevels. I reserve the green stone for major surgery. I don't know how coarse or fine your Norton stones are, but I think I'd try the 1000 first, to see if it would do the job, before I unlimbered the heavy artillery.

You used sandpaper on glass, and you think waterstones make a mess? Hmmm. I take the lid from the Tupperware stone-container, and lay it on several layers of newspaper; the newspaper's on a 15" square piece of plywood; and I put the stone I'm using on top of the lid. There's a rib all around the lid that sticks up 1/8" or so; that corrals all the water; if any water escapes it gets soaked up by the newspaper.

Whew! Not as long as your message though,

Alan

Re: waterstones + one other strange thing... *LINK*

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>I included the link to Joel's listing for the stones... Even there he includes alot of info... some of which differs from your points Ted.

:)

>1. If you place a waterstone in water for a couple minutes, that's not really soaking; it's just quick prepping. Some stones that are designed not to be soaked, such as Shaptons, nonetheless must sit in water a minute or two before use. So don't worry about hurting a non-soakable stone by having it in water a few minutes. Don't know whether that's the case with yours.

I'm not sure here... Norton's manual that came with the stones says soak them. I only soaked them for a bit to see if the water I sprayed on the stone would soak in or stay on the top. The 4000 certainly benefitted while the 8000 did not (think suction or as Dave referred to it, stiction).

>2. Once you polish the back of a blade to 8000, the back should never be touched again by anything more coarse than 8000. So after you polish your microbevel, remove the wire edge only with the 8000 stone--omit the 4000.

I followed Joel's instructions from that stone page...so blame him.

;)

In seriousness, would it matter that much? After all, if I repolish with 8000 after 4000, is the end result the same or am I missing something? just curious..

>3. When removing wire edge, move the blade across the stone in the same direction as the blade's cutting edge, or 90 degrees to the direction the blade ultimately is used in the plane. If you remove the wire edge the way most people do, you're actually causing it to snap off--like bending a coat hanger back and forth until it breaks. Moving "across" the blade instead cuts off the wire edge cleanly.

I did this without thinking about it. I started out going sideways and then did a couple of passes doing a figure 8. I checked after about 2 passes and no more wire edge. I did the same as 8000 after the 4000.

>3. I'd put any microbevel at 1 or 2 degrees, not 5 degrees, unless there's some other geometry reason to do so.

Well two things here:

1) I usually do a 1 degree, but in the past I have not had good luck with those. They seem to wear out pretty quickly, at least on this low angle plane and some other planes I have. Some other planes do well with a 1 or 2 degree micro-bevel.

2) Now for the strange thing... I have checked this some and I am not certain as to the reason. Like I mentioned before, I sharpened my Veritas low angle block plane. I remember when I first sharpened the plane that the bevel angle seemed weird for the blade. Why does it seem weird? Well, it was ground at 18 degrees. Now I read the instructions, and it clearly says that the blade was ground at 25 degrees but mine is definitely 18. I tried to think of why it might be that and the only thing that comes to mind is that the bed angle is 12, and with a blade angle of 18, you have a 30 degree cutting angle. Since I initially noticed this I have double-checked the web site, and Lee Valley clearly lists the blade angle as 25. Maybe I got an experimental model. ;)

In any event I stuck with the 18 degree primary but moved up to a 23 degree micro bevel (5 degrees). Of course this would explain alot of my blade problems especially with this plane since I'm sure that such a low angle won't last long.

take care...


http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=NO-WAT.XX&Category_Code=THW

Some answers...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>1. My waterstones (King's) live in water (300, 800, 2000, 4000, 8000, 12,000 grits).

2. No, it doesn't like water (DAMHIKT).

3. Just rub it all over the stones.

4. Yes, 4000 and up.

5. I do, I just hose them off before they get put back. They seem happy enough together.

Side notes, make a jig for your guide it's soooo much easier to use then and the set-up the same time after time.

Re: 1st Waterstone use and some questions (very lo

GolfSteve in Calgary

>My Norton stones live in water with no problem. The 8000 stone suffers from a lot of stiction unless it is well soaked.

Try making a bench hook to hold your stones when you are sharpening. The hook will keep water off your bench and keep your stones from sliding around.

A dedicated sharpening bench would also be ideal. If you freehand sharpen, the bench should be about mid-thigh height so that your body is positioned well above the stones.

I just use my regular bench for sharpening, but stand on a stool for the final honing so that I get my body well above the stones and can control my movements better.

Re: waterstones + one other strange thing...

joel

>I just read my descrition. I don;t know what I was thinking. The 4k stone certainly benifits from a short soak. I need to change the page.

(I'm thinking I copied the information from another brand of stones I don't know - sometimes I'm brain dead - or maybe my editor "corrected" it)

On the combo stone I use for my traveling show (I'll be demoing NOrton stones at this weekend's LI woodworkers show) I soak the 4k side only.

>2. Once you polish the back of a blade to 8000 ...

I sharpen both sides at the same time so I won't be moving to the 8k stone on the back until I've done both bevel and back on the 4k stone.

I pay very little attention to scratches, magifiiers are anything (my eyesite is too bad to see it anyway) . I basically work by feel. First I create a wire edge, then I chase it on finer stones (whether oil or water). then the wire is gone - I'm done. if the wire is torn off prematurely you get a ragged duller edge.

I remove the wire edge by flipping back and forth on each side removing the edge by fatigue and wear.

Re: Some answers...

joel

>my king stones have been in the same tub of water since 1985. I think I cleaned it in the mid 90's but Both Norton and Shapton stones are a different chemistry and the respective companies strongly urge against long term storage in water.

Re: waterstones + one other strange thing...

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Do you flatten the back every time you sharpen a blade? If so why?

Re: 1st Waterstone use and some questions (very lo

Dan Donaldson

>I use an old cookie sheet. One of those with about a 1/2" lip all around it. I put some of that rubber non-slip stuff under the sheet so it doesn't move around and also a piece in the sheet , then use a stone holder for the Nortons and King's, and the box for the Shaptons. That really helps keep the mess off the bench. (BTW, I also use a small bench that I built for the kids ages ago for the sharpening stuff. It is quite low and gives me just the right position for sharpening.) YMMV

Well...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>thanks for all the comments...

I have some more to ruminate on...

;)

Re: waterstones + one other strange thing...

joel

>I don't flatten the back every time I sharpen - the back is already flat - but I chase the burr from both sides. that's how I wear it away.

I cannot see how you can remove the burr cleanly just by working from one side and almost every blade I have seen sharpened that way has a false edge that rapidly deteriorates.

if you remove the burr roughly then you get a ragged edge which will seem sharp but will also not last.

THe primary reason for having a flat back is so you can consistently push the burr back to the bevel side.

test

rarebear

>test

My bench hook contraption

Bruce, a MN galoot

>is a little piece of cedar with a lip around it to hold the stone in place. It fits all my stones. What holds it in place on the bench is a lug on the bottom that fits into my bench dog holes. It keeps the whole shebang very stable.

Bruce

Re: 1st Waterstone use and some questions (very lo

Charles

>Chris, your post is the best argument for using ceramic stones that I've ever read.

Nagura stones.... 4,000 grit, 8,000 grit, spray bottles, Tupperware containers, filtered water, chlorine bleach.... you have got to be kidding!

Work a little longer, gain some perspective, and re-read your post. Hopefully, you'll laugh as hard as I did (in a very good-natured way).

It does not have to be this hard. You should have stopped with SP-on-glass.

Norton also recommends...

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>... against long-term storage of their stones in water?

Re: Norton also recommends...

joel

>Yes - this is directly from the guys who make the stones. I asked specifically because I wasn't positive myself

Re: What About Naguras?

Hank Knight

>Joel, what does Norton say about using a nagura stone on their products? I don't use one my Nortons but others apparently do.

Re: What About Naguras?

joel

>I also asked that and they had no opinion. Remember the nagura has two functions - The primary one - correcting high spots on a water stone and evening out the wear. The second function is helping to create an inital slurry.

I use a nagura all the time on king stones but never tried it on the Nortons. It might help on the 8K - certainly worth a try. and it will have get rid of high spots/

Re: 1st Waterstone use and some questions (very lo

Charles

>Something else occurred to me... with all that honing and use of a guide I'd be worried that your stones are ever-so-slightly dished - dished enough that a micrograph of edges honed on these dished stones would show that the edge was not perfect by at least two microns. Chris, that's unacceptable.

You need to flatten your stones by using sandpaper on a tool-room grade granite reference surface. Don't buy a Grade B stone. You need the best money can buy. If you compromise then your work may not be the quality of the work that came from the Goddard-Townsend shop. You see, what we did not know is that the secret to the beautiful work they produced a few hundred years ago was that Mr. Goddard had secretly invented microphotography and read scans on each edge tool before he dared use the tool to make something.

Re: waterstones + one other strange thing...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>Joel,

re-reading your description info, I can see how your method of switching back and forth from face to bevel would make sense versus how I approach it by working on the face first, then working on the bevel.

So what you are saying about chasing the burr is that after working on the bevel, you work the wire edge off by moving back and forth from face to bevel on an 8000 stone?

Is that correct?

Re: 1st Waterstone use and some questions (very lo

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>Alan, I never really had much mess with the sand paper route. Maybe it's just me...

I found the best way to go was to use 3M PSA micron graded paper from Lee Valley, on a long piece of float glass. I dribbled some water on the glass, and went to work. I never really had to deal with heavy slurry....

Of course, in this instance with the stones, I am pretty certain that it's my setup combined with my overzealous use of water while sharpening.

;)

Re: Some answers...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>I started working on a tray last night for holding this stuff. I'm making it out of scraps and some extra pieces I have around in the shop.

I'll post pictures later on..

The blade/guide jig will help... but it needs to be accurate, of course..

;)