Hand planing survey

Re: Hand planing survey

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Hi Adam. I use 4/4 for 90% of what I do. I don't use 16" wide stock...my jointer/planer is 12" so I will comment on a 12" wide board 2' long.

I remove the bow from the board with whatever plane works best...usually an ECE smoother set for a relatively heavy cut, about .040". I have an ECE scrub but I've never had a piece of 4/4 that I felt required its use. I flip the board over on my bench and if it doesn't rock I say it's flat & then I run it through my power planer flat side down. I continue to bring it to size planing alternate sides in the power planer. Time involved varies with type of wood but maximum would be 15 min, average 5-7 min and absolutely no sweat.

I love my hand tools but if I worked the way you described I'd have to charge 5x what I do. I'd hate to think of making the blanket chest I'm making the way you describe. Yes, I certainly could do it that way but who would pay me $5000.00 for a chest?

I do use a #78 & a #48 as well as a #46 for rabbeting, T&G, and grooving unless I have multiple units in a larger production run. I have found that moderation or balance in using non-powered & powered hand tools works best for me.

Re: Hand planing survey

Paul Barnard

>That's exactly the way I do it. Slight variation on the specific planes but same process non the less. It certainly seems a lot less than 2 hours for a board that size for me but I tend to batch them up and do a step at a time on a number of boards, so I could be fooling myself. The last batch I did were red oak and I did work up quite a sweat. I think practice does help as I can knock a cup or wind out of a board pretty well by feel now and that sure speeds up the initial work. I've often thought about a power thicknesser but tend to work the boards to what ever thickness they want to be rather than an exact size.

Re: Hand planing survey

Steve Kubien

>I'd be happy to do that in 2 hours for a couple of reasons.....

I don't own a scrub plane (but plan to make one),

I'm outta shape.

I'm working on some 3ft long, 12" wide makore now which has big-time twist and I've got 2 hours into flattening just one face. I'll finish the other side tonight since there is no hockey.

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Hand planing survey

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>I'd say 2 hours is pretty high but it really depends on the kind of wood you are working with. Figured woods can take allot of time whereas a softwood takes much less time.

On straight grained Maple I have been doing 6/4 boards where I start with a scrub for twist. followed by a rough transition jointer plane, then the 607 followed by a 4 1/2 in about 1 hour and yes I am covered in sweat after I am done. Great work out isn't it!

Now I have been working on 2 -16" wide slabs 8 feet long filled with quilted, tiger and all kinds of figured maple for about an eternity and have easilly spent about 16 hours just getting the boards flat,removing tearout and relatively smooth down to 3/4". It has been a humbling experience.

Good Luck,

Dan Clermont

Re: Hand planing survey

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Hi Adam,

I use roughsawn a lot, but never see a board over 10" wide, so our experiences are different. Also, like a couple of other folks, I flatten the easy side, then use a lunchbox planer on the other side to both flatten and thickness. Then final joint and smooth by hand. Edge jointing goes very fast. The whole process doesn't take a lot of time, although I've never timed myself. And frankly, usually when I guess at these things, I guess on the short side.

Here are a coupla things I've concluded. Just for my own working purposes--not trying to proselytize. One, I have a Japanese 65mm, 15-1/2" long, 40-degree, what-they-call-a-jointer. Mouth is opened up. This thing will move more wood faster than anything else I have seen. Rips off thick scabs as quick as I can reload. Because it's a woodie, it doesn't wear me out. Because I'm pulling, I can get by back and legs into it. It joints pretty well, cause there's a lot of bedding forward of the blade. This plane sorta combines scrubbing, jack, and preliminary jointing--use it for both face and edge. I love this plane. For that board you mentioned, I would start in on the concave side, and remove the cup by planing directly across the board toward me--from the edge in--and rip off about 1/32" at a time. Right down the board like a typewriter, ripping down the off side. Then flip the board around, and do the same to the other. If you scrub inwards from the edge, you won't get nasty split-out from the plane going off the edge (when planing sideways). Then start swinging the plane more diagonally, working from both sides. And finally end to end.

A second point. You don't need to do a lot of checking as you go with straight edges and sticks. The shavings are telling you most everything you want to know. If you're working a convex side, plane from the inside out, and move outward to get a new bite only when the plane is not pickng up a shaving in the middle anymore. If you're working a concave side, it's beginning to get flat when the plane starts picking up a shaving in the middle from any direction. It's done when you get the same thickness shaving from the length of the board, both diagonally and from end to end. Make one check at the end by taking a straightedge, stood on edge, and swing it around on itself through 360 degrees, from somewhere near the middle of the board--straightedge shouldn't be high-centered or high-on-the-ends in any direction. This is confirming what the shavings have already told you. If the straightedge and the shavings don't agree, see point 3 below.

Three, it takes a flat bench to do this stuff. If the bench is not flat, terrible things can happen when you're face jointing.

Actually, I think you're doing very well, doing things the hard way, and I only mention the above observations in case any of it helps in some small way.

Wiley

Re: Hand planing survey

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Hello, Adam

You're now reading the words of the world's slowest woodworker...

I've rarely worked with really wide boards unless I'm working on a tabletop. I had a thick 5/4 cherry board 16" wide x 30" long that took me about 6 hours to flatten & smooth to about 7/8" thickness. Poplar would have take much less time, maple would have taken more time than the cherry.

I recently dimensioned a poplar board about 8" wide x 24" long in about one hour.

I don't have the most efficient bench, so there's some time wasted trying to find the best way to keep the board from moving around. On narrow boards (<8") I just plane against a stop a'la Ian Kirby. For wider boards it would sure be nice to hold the boards in place so that I could scrub diagonally.

From your description you switch back and forth between planes a lot more often that I do (I don't bother with a #5 in this process):

1. I use a scrub to get one face mostly flat, then use the #8 with a heavy cut to smooth out the scalloping left behind by the scrub & check for twist with winding sticks. I check for straighness with a straightedge. On smaller boards you can just tip your jointer 45 degrees and use the edge of the plane as a straightedge.

2. I skip joint all the edges using the #8. I do this so that my marking gauge line is more visible.

3. I mark to the thickness I want, and use the scrub to get close to that thickness.

4. I switch to the #8 and bring the board down to the desired thickness. The closer I get to the marked line, the finer the cut I take.

5. Both face are now flattened. I now go over them with the 4-1/2 to get a finished surface (the #8 is usually getting a bit dull by now if I'm working in cherry or maple; for poplar it should still be sharp).

6. I use the #8 to joint an edge.

7. I usually throw the board through the tablesaw to get the board to the required width and to ensure that other edge is parallel to my jointed edge.

8. I joint the tablesawn edge with the #8.

9. I shoot the endgrain ends of the board using the #8. I now have a six-square board.

10. If I'm making a drawer my procedure is a little bit different in that I'll try to scrub an equal amount off of each side of the board to get close to the desired thickness before I start to flatten.

I don't own a power planer, but I'm thicking of getting one before I start dimensioning a bunch of 10' long maple boards for a benchtop. That's just too much work to do by hand in my limited spare time.

Re: Hand planing survey

CONGER - The Irish diaspora in Munich

>Yep... I do it just that way.... 'cept I use a #7 instead of a #8. I go on to the #4.5 afterwards to get the shiny finish.

I guess (and that is all I can offer, as my woodworking is non commercial and 'theraputic', and thus is un-timed) that I would take somewhere just over and hour... if I did not have to stop and re-sharpen. Critical is the scrub... it must be SHARP - especially when dealing with difficult planks... currently I am working with maple which is 'featured'.

The work with a sharpened #7 goes quickly. I am not an ACCURATE worker; I dont have the required fine-motor skills, so I use a jig when I cut edges for jointing.

I really enjoy the challenge of working with hand tools... but I recognise that I can never be commercial.

Re: Hand planing survey

Brent Langdon, Sterling VA

>This is an interesting thread and I hope that more chime in. The hand plane bug bit me over a year ago. Shop time has been very limited, so I would put myself on the level of somebody that has a couple months experience.

I had a decent #5 and #7 and I picked up a cheap #4. I had visions of flattening, thicknessing and smoothing boards by hand. After many hours of frustration trying to work some red oak I came across a good deal on a Dewalt planner. The planner is loud, heavy and makes a huge mess, but it has at least let me get on with my project.

Stock preparation can still be the most time consuming and least enjoyable part of woodworking for me. It all seems to depend on how the wood is behaving. One day I had a joy working some walnut, but often I find myself fighting with tearout and grain changes.

With the power planner in the mix, I just have to get one face of the board reasonably flat. I have recently added a Veritas #4 1/2 to the mix that I hope will help with the final smoothing (but I have not put it to use on a project yet).

- Brent

Re: Hand planing survey

Adam Cherubini

>I have a question for all you hand planers out there. I'm wondering how much time it would take you to plane the following board: 16 inch wide poplar, 2 feet long, rough sawn, dry, 1+ inch thick, slight cup and twist. How long would it take you to flatten it and thickness it to 3/4 inch.

Hi Adam (nice to have another Adam around here- that way I can blame any wrong or incendiary posts on you!)

When people made their livings using hand tools, they worked incredibly quickly (probably faster than any of us and faster than many with power tools.) 2 hours is absolutely an unreasonable amount of time to surface a board. 10 minutes is pretty much the tops for a board that size.

The process you describe doesn�t sound unreasonable. The difference between 2 hours and 10 minutes can be accomplished by:

1) Choose straight-grained stock that will be less prone to warping or casting. When working wide boards, choose only those close to the heart of the tree. Your 16� piece of tulip (it�s probably not poplar) is probably pretty close to the heart, so cupping should be minimal.

2) Only one face, the outer face needs to be smooth. And it needn�t be very smooth. Tear out from tiny knots or other imperfections are acceptable and often sought after. They enable people to distinguish between solid wood, and ply wood, hand made and machine made.

3) A slight cup can be clamped out. It needn�t be planed out. One advantage of dovetail joinery is that it will sufficiently restrain a board flat. Just remember to keep the board restrained all through the joinery process I usually choose heart side out for carcass sides (similar in size to your board) because the strain will be in the middle of the board (wanting to bow out). Complete the assembly in one day (should be no more than half a day for a carcass).

4) Thicknessing stock is almost never needed. You are probably just doing it because that�s what a power tool would do. Herein lies the problem many of us face; We are taught to work wood with power tools. The use of electricity isn�t the only difference between using hand tools and using power tools. There are different approaches.

1. How long would it take you to do a piece of wood like I mentioned above?

No more than 10 minutes. Probably more like 5. If it was a front or top, I MIGHT spend as many as 10 minutes to smooth and maybe scrape if need be.

2. What is your process?

1) Look the board over. Look at each edge. Try to understand exactly where it was in the tree and what it wants to do now. Select the outside face.

2) Remove saw marks with 16� wooden jack/fore plane, cutting 30-45 degrees across the grain. Its rounded iron cuts narrow, shallow grooves. Since the board is probably cupped in the middle (I probably choose the heart side for the outside), I�ll spend my time there.

BTW: This sort of heavy planing across the grain really calls for a bench with a rear stop of some sort. The all important tail vise is less helpful since we're pushing the board sideways.

3) With majority of saw marks removed, I�ll switch to my wooden smoother. No need to flatten using my try plane since the customer doesn�t care how flat the sides of his dresser are. Working the smoother lengthwise, I�ll freshen up the surface and remove any of the grooves left by the fore plane.

4) The dovetailed ends need to have a consistent thickness. I�ll set my marking gauge to the middle of the board (thinnest part) then gauge across the end grain. A few swipes directly cross grain with the fore plane will do the trick. Be careful to plane in from both edges to avoid tearing out the edge grain.

5) Lastly, I�ll straighten and square one edge with my try plane. This will take less than one minute. The back edge probably needs nothing. If the edges aren�t parallel, I�ll plane the back side, but if they are close, I�ll skip it. Usually, I do both sides as one board. As long as they are the same, it really doesn�t matter what the back edge is like. Since I pay extra for wide boards, I don�t want to needlessly plane away their width.

Although own many planes including a european scrub plane, these three plane suffice for 90% of my surface work. All have curved irons, as they should, IMHO.

3. Do you own a power planer? (I'm not in the market for one, just wondering.)

No.

No wonder you`re a curmudgeon...

Bob Hackett

>Dashing thru the work like that.How much coffee do you drink prior to going out to the shop?Why do you stand for a boss who sets such a rabid pace?You really need to slow down and smell the shavings there Adam.Relax,get out more,buy a planer while you`re out.;^)

Will the real handtool craftsman please stand up!Nice to hear from a realist who knows his stuff because he works it and isn`t afraid to add a healthy dose of reality to the mix.I always enjoy your posts,and your outlook.

Mainely,Bob

superb advice!

Adam DeGraff

>Adam,

Thank you so much for your excellent advice. Your reply to my original post was exactly what I was hoping for. (Not that I didn't appreciate or learn anything from the other replies.)

The point you make about hand tools NOT simply being a slower, more laborious method of acheiving machine-like results is a point that I think us hand woodworkers need to spend some time thinking about. Actually, I put words in your mouth...you said: "You are probably just doing it because that�s what a power tool would do. Herein lies the problem many of us face; We are taught to work wood with power tools. The use of electricity isn�t the only difference between using hand tools and using power tools. There are different approaches."

I have to admit, that while toiling to thickness a board, I have often wondered why I "need" to do that. I base the depth of the dovetail on the thickness of the tail board anyway. One question I have though....Let's say for the sake of argument that 4 pieces for a chest come from 4 different pieces of wood. All of slightly different thicknesses. I go ahead and flatten the face sides, then take the backs down just so they are parallel. I may end up with 4 different thicknesses of boards. Can I just dovetail 'em up? Wouldn't that look strange? You said in your post: "The dovetailed ends need to have a consistent thickness. I�ll set my marking gauge to the middle of the board (thinnest part) then gauge across the end grain. A few swipes directly cross grain with the fore plane will do the trick. Be careful to plane in from both edges to avoid tearing out the edge grain."

Do you mean that the dovetailed ends need to be the same thickness as one another, or that each board must be uniformly thick at the business ends?

Well, I doubt if this will be my last question for you. I really appreciate your detailed reply. You have lead us in the direction that I was hoping for. I hope others chime in with their methods of using hand tools as they were intended to be used, instead of their methods of using hand tools to do what a machine can do.

Thanks,

Adam DeGraff

Re: Hand planing survey

deanj

>I'll second some of what Adam says. I've been working on some tables, and spent the most amount of time working the top, but the udnerside of the top is mearly reasonably flat and not glass smooth, who is going to see it? The apron face (which faces out) is smooth and is my face edge, I mark all the tenons from that face edge. The insides are again reasonably smooth, but exact thickness is not important. So long as you understand that you have to use your face and edge (which you marked) the other face and other edge (in the case of and aprob) need only be "good enough."

Even my legs only have once face and edge, they are the faces I cut the mortises in, the other two sides of the legs are "good enough" and as it turns out darn near dead on square without much work.

So my advice is to think about where you are going to use this piece of wood, and make sure the face and edge are square to each other, thickness really doesn't matter if you push all the "error" (within reason of course) to the inside of the table/carcass/etc...

Perfect thickness comes from that power tool, look at the insides of old furniture, you'll often see scrub plane marks... No reason you can't leave them in there too...

Enjoy!

Re: Hand planing survey

Tim

>this way of work is good for those with tailed devils as well.

the maxim being:

build to fit.

follow this, and the exact thicknesses of stock doesn't matter nor does it matter if the opposite side is parallel...though you've got to be quite careful with marking pieces for inside/outside, up/down, left/right, top/bottom....blah blah blah.

Re: No wonder you`re a curmudgeon...

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Thanks for the nice words, Bob.

Its funny you mention:

A few weeks ago I completed a pretty large chest on chest. I thought I was moving pretty good. It is two separate cases. Upper has 5 drawers, lower has 3. 6 turned legs, lots of moldings, bent cockbeading, etc. Took me three weeks start to finish. I was pushing it because its a strange piece (rare in the wild) and I really don't know how much someone would be willing to pay for such a monstrousity.

Coincidentally, I've been researching the builder of the original. As best as I can figure, he was a full week faster for the same piece.

It makes one wonder if you were in business making one-off pieces, whether you would really be better off with power tools? Said differently, what did that builder know that we don't?

Best!

Adam

Sharpening

Luke Herzberg

>Adam, how often or how much time are you sharpening tools when working at that fever pitch? Do you set aside a block of time to do a batch of sharpening or just a tool at a time whenever it needs it?

Thanks,

Luke

Re: No wonder you`re a curmudgeon...

Adam DeGraff

>Love to see a picture of that piece!

Re: No wonder you`re a curmudgeon...

Dan Donaldson

>Did he have an apprentice? That could have been part of the secret ;-)

Not Adam C. but I'm betting. + Question for Adam C

Jonathan Kaplan (OR)

>Hi Adam G.

As Adam noted, you don't need to take all the boards to any *particular* thickness.

Sometimes it might make sense to get all the wood to the same thickness, but often it *doesn't* look odd for e.g. the top to be thinner than the bottom, etc.

You quote Adam as noting that:

"The dovetailed ends need to have a consistent thickness. I�ll set my marking gauge to the middle of the board (thinnest part) then gauge across the end grain. A few swipes directly cross grain with the fore plane will do the trick. Be careful to plane in from both edges to avoid tearing out the edge grain."

and ask:

"Do you mean that the dovetailed ends need to be the same thickness as one another, or that each board must be uniformly thick at the business ends?"

I'm pretty sure it is the latter that matters -- you can dovetail boards of different thicknesses together without any problems -- we do it all the time on drawers without even thinking about it! As you note, you mark the dovetails from the board thickness anyway, so it doesn't matter. What does matter, as Adam notes, is that the boards be uniform where you are cutting joints. I learned to make the entire board uniform (the *long* method you describe) but have, I admit, recently taken to using the method Adam describes, where changes in thickness, etc., in the middle of the board are just ignored. As long as the *end* is even, you'll have no trouble (within reason..)

That brings up my question for Adam C.: Do you ever get into trouble fitting drawers into cabinates made w/ wood that isn't evenlty thick accross its surface? That is, it seems like there is the opportunity for drawers to stick, etc. I can see some ways of avoiding that problem, but I'm wondering if it really comes out as a problem, if one does, what you do!

Thanks for the great question, Adam G. and the great response, Adam C. !

jk

An interesting observation

Bob Hackett

>A friend of mine who makes shaker style furniture and has taken classes with Christian Becksvort is fond of derailing discussions on the merits of handplaned pieces by saying"I can hear them now,what a lovely piece.Obviously planed by a well tuned LN 4 1/2"in a somewhat sarcastic voice.

Now that I think of it,the only time I`ve ever heard anyone comment on my choice of tools was when a man called his wife over and directed her attention to the underside of a small table top where I had left the tracks of the wild scrub plane.his comment was," see that,that`s how you know it was made by hand".Are you listening Brian?

Mainely,Bob

Re: Sharpening

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Good questions Luke,

how often or how much time are you sharpening tools when working at that fever pitch?

I'm not sure what the real question is here. I'm guessing you may be thinking I plane for ten minutes, then sharpen my plane for an hour before I can continue to plane again. That's certainly not the case. I seek out techniques that are easy on my tools.

Also, I wouldn't characterize my workpace as "fevered". I'm not working faster. I'm finishing my work sooner. I'm leaving surfaces less smooth, less flat, and less consistently thick! I'm choosing boards and joints to allow all this.

I resharpen all the bench planes after every carcass or two (depending on size and materials). Chisels used for dovetailing get redone after one case and drawers, or as needed.

It takes me about a half hour to resharpen a plane sized edge. Keep in mind, they are very old irons, have pits, non-flat backs and all have rounded edges (so I can't use my new veritas honng jig)

Do you set aside a block of time to do a batch of sharpening or just a tool at a time whenever it needs it?

I really don't like stopping in the middle of a job. I don't like the break in concentration. Also, boards you plane flat only stay flat for that day. I try to plane and join in the same day.

For me that's the advantage of good chisels. I really don't have time to fix a tool in teh middle of a job, those my belief that Marples and Sorbys are bad, evil tools!

Anyway, I hope I answered your question brother. If not, write back and say something nasty to me and I'll get the message!

Adam

I agree!

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Jonathan,

Do you ever get into trouble fitting drawers into cabinets made w/ wood that isn't evenlty thick across its surface?

No. Thickness is in the noise. You really don't want drawers to be too tight side to side anyway. It does nothing for you. Precision top to bottom makes a nice feeling drawer, or a really sticky one. I think you're better off leaving your drawers loose! :)

Adam

Re: Sharpening

paul womack

>... my belief that Marples and Sorbys are bad, evil tools!

I'll assume you mean the current day ones - I have some very fine blades with those names :-)

BugBear

What is Skip Jointing?

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>

Re: What is Skip Jointing?

Dan Donaldson

>I think he is referring to just taking a quick pass or two over the edge. It might not be perfectly flay and have some "skips" where it is still rough, but it has enough smooth areas to let the marks show up better. You can see this sometimes when you buy boards. The faces are "skip planed" so that there is enough clean area to see the grain, but minimal wood is removed so that you can finish it as you like.