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Saw sharpening question

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Saw sharpening question

#1

Saw sharpening question

Jay Hanks/ Columbus Ohio

>I am just starting to try my hand with hand tools; I buy more than I should from Ebay, and to try to start myself off on the right foot I was going to send my saws to Tom Law for sharpening. My question is about tpi for the various uses in casework, dovetails, rip, crosscut, etc.

My current backsaw/small saw inventory is a Jackson dovetail 6-8" long, 2 Gents saw's 6" long, a 50's era 12" Disston and a 12" Sheffield, that's what I can read from the etc, both of which I will probably just use for general purpose work, and 2 very old Disstons 12" and 14".

From looking at the new LN and Adria tools most dovetail saws are 15tpi, carcass is 14tpi, small tenon saws 13 tpi and large tenon saws 11tpi. So my question is for the dovetail, gents and old Disston's what would you recommend they be set at? Thanks Jay

Re: Saw sharpening question

#2

Jim in Burlington Ont.

Re: Saw sharpening question

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>The smaller the tooth set the straighter the saw will cut. Dovetail cutting is a matter of cutting a straight line. Tom Law has a great video of how to sharpen saws it's very easy once you get the flow of the file.

Re: Saw sharpening question

#3

answer

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>send saws to Tom Law and tell him what you want to use them for. He will file and set accordingly. At least this approach has worked for me. Just got 9 back for club members and this is exactly what we did. Labeled each saw with it intended use using masking tape on blade. Some were retoothed, some filed and set and some were just filed.

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#4

Re: Saw sharpening question

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I don�t know whether you are asking about set or tpi? With the utmost respect for Adria and LN, I wouldn�t use these saws as models for what you should do. They seem to be beautifully made saws, but not necessarily set up correctly for all work. Saws are complicated things

I think you are doing the right thing buying a few more things than you need and experimenting with them, BTW. Think that's a reasonable approach, FWIW.

My advice would be different depending on the work you do, but this sentence is pretty specific. My question is about tpi for the various uses in casework, dovetails, rip, crosscut, etc. I'm assuming you are working the woods I use (tulip, pine, walnut, mahogany, cherry).

In the 18th century, it seems cabinetmakers filed all saws rip. How and why they cross cut with rip saws escapes me. Untill we figure it out, I�d recommend taking your longest saw (the 14�) and filing it cross cut. Specifically: 12ppi (or so) 20-30 degree rake, 20 degree fleam (for hardwoods). Set can be very low for obvious reasons. I don�t recommend no set.

Take one of the 6� gent�s saws (the one with the narrower blade) and file that as fine as possible. 15ppi isn�t too fine. Use a 5 degree rake (obviously 0 fleam- it�s a rip saw) and set very lightly. I�d file the near teeth, then turn the saw around and file the near teeth again to push any burr inside. Don�t stone this saw! Reserve this guy for thin stock, 1/2� or less.

Turning your attention to the Jackson, I�d make that saw your primary drawer dovetailer (because of its length and handle). File 12-14 ppi rip. If you are new to dovetailing and hand sawing and have trouble getting your saws to start, go with a 5 degree rake. You deserve every possible advantage. Once you get better, consider changing this to 0 rake (easy change at some subsequent filing). A moderate set is a good thing for a beginner. The saw cuts slower, but its easier to correct a wayward cut. I recommend not resetting this tool. As you cut more, you get better. As you sharpen, you gradually remove the set.

Take your pick of whatever 12� saws you�ve got left. File this the same as above but 12 ppi max. This will be your carcass saw.

The last backsaw every cabinetmaker needs and none of us have is a true tenon saw. This should be 9-11 ppi and 18� long. You could try making one out of a miter saw. In the meantime, do what I do and use your carcass saw as best you can.

Last words: In case you haven�t guessed, my preference is for very low rake rip saws. Low rakes cut faster, but are trickier to use. I also prefer low sets on all back saws. I prefer coarser saws since I think really fine saws clog in thick material. In general, the thinner the stock, the finer the teeth. Forget about �smooth� cutting (Disston marketeering). That�s almost always a red herring in my opinion. I've arrived at 12ppi as the right pitch for 4/4 stock.

All of my recommendations are a matter of personal preference. I recommend using them (or someone else's picks) as a starting place not a definitive answer to your question. Keep in mind that set and rake are essential for discussions like this since this is what you feel most.

Good Luck

Adam

Re: Saw sharpening question

#5

Thanks for the info!

Brent Langdon, Sterling VA

>Adam:

I did not ask the question and I do not understand all of your response, but I know there is a lot of good information there.

- Brent

Re: Saw sharpening question

#6

Re: Thanks for the info!

Jay Hanks/ Columbus Ohio

>Thanks for all the replies, I thought it was a simple question but I guess now I got a little thinking to do. Once again it shows when you think you know a little something you dont know nearly enough. Jay

Re: Saw sharpening question

#7

Good Luck!

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Saws are complicated. They are (or have been) highly optimized tools, sometimes deceptively so. But they are worthy of your effort:

By providing the power yourself, you quickly discern when a hand saw isn't working well. If you haven't got a power saw (like me) this frustration becomes a big motivator to go find a solution. On the other side of that solution is an understanding of how saw teeth work that is immediately transferable to all saw teeth, electrically powered or not.

Having optimized my saws for my work and achieved all of the speed I feel is available (I said speed, not accuracy- good workers have both. I only have speed), I've come to the conclusion that hand saws suck. Sawing is drudgery. On the other side of this realization, is a whole new world of woodworking, never recorded and waiting to be discovered. How can I change how I am working to reduce laborious sawing operations? What other operations can be "island hopped"? What are the ramifications for stock selection, or design?

Adam

P.S. In almost every image of period cabinetshops or joineries an axe is shown. Hmmmm.

Re: Saw sharpening question

#8

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Paul Warnock

>Adam just curious as to your sources regarding the lack of crosscut filing on 18th century saws. The saws in both the Seaton chest as well as the Phyfe chest have both cross cut and rip filings. Though I admit, 2 sets of tools can hardly be considered representative, but both of these tool chests are well documented and preserved in their original state. (not found at a fleamarket or garage sale).

Re: Saw sharpening question

#9

Re: Saw sharpening question

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Bugbear,

I never see mention of cross cut saws in period accounts. My copy of "The Tool Chest of Benjamin Seaton" doesn't mention whether any of the saws were filed cross cut (which I find an interesting omission). So I asked Mack Headley. (His response is attached below). Will you ask Don McConnell? I have a piece of Don and Mack's correspondance. Don was doing his typical thorough job researching this subject. Like me, he seems incredulous that period craftsmen crosscut with rip saws. Until we find some smoking gun, I think its difficult to conclude that cross cut saws were in use in the 18th century.

Mr. Cherubini,

We sharpen all of ours saws rip. There is an absence of evidence for crosscut sharpening on surviving saws or in literature at this point. The majority of our work demanding accurate cuts, resawing broad boards and tenons, are ripping cuts. We find that a fine tooth rip saw will suffice for the occasions we do need to cut across the grain.

The greater ease of controlling the angle of the tooth's face and uniform tooth height when filing saws rip has discouraged us from taking advantage of the more challenging cross cut sharpening.

I am sending an exchange on your topic I had with Don McConnell a while back.

Mack Headley

Master Cabinetmaker

Colonial Williamsburg Foundation

Re: Saw sharpening question

#10

Sorry wrong Paul!

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>

👍 This page answered my questions

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