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Mortise chisel advice needed

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Mortise chisel advice needed

#1

Mortise chisel advice needed

Stephen in Ottawa

>I am planning on getting a 3/8" mortise chisel. Until now I've made my mortises by first drilling out the waste then cleaning up with my beveled edged chisels. This method works fine, but I feel it takes too long and I don't enjoy the drilling. I want to try chopping sice I've heard that it is actually faster and more accurate than the method I've been using until now, and also to see if I enjoy it more.

I have narrowed my choices down to the 10mm mortise chisel from Two Cherries and the 3/8" Sorby 'Registered Mortise chisel' that is available from Lee Valley.

Does any one have any opinions about either or both these chisels? I am looking for a rugged and durable tool, that can be used in North American hardwoods, typically hard maple.

Also, does anyone know of sources for the Two Cherries chisel in Canada?

Thanks,

- Stephen

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#2

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I've heard good thing about 2 Cherries. I've held them and their hefty, I could barly get my hands around them. Seem like a quality chisel. I prefer Japaneese morticing chisels for that reason. I'd pass on the Sorby's, heard that the steel used in them is not that good, they don't hold an edge well.

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#3

Two Cherries at Rosewood *LINK*

Dar

>Hello Stephen,

The closest retailer to Ottawa for Two Cherries mortise chisels is Rosewood Studio in Almonte, Ontario.

As for an opinion on the different manufacturers of mortise chisesls, we are the Canadian importers for Two Cherries, so we can hardly give you an unbiased opinion, but I recommend that you look for previous postings about Two Cherries mortise chisels, especially their edge-holding ability.

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Darlene

European Hand Tools


Rosewood Studio

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#4

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

Jeff Aldred

>Steve:

I have a Sorbys from Lee Valley, although mine is probably 15 years old now. I have never had any trouble with it.

Rosewood Studios out in Almonte has 2 Cheeries mortising chisels in their shop if you are looking to hold one (my preferred purchasing method). I think that the large handle will either feel very steady in your hands, or be too big - your call. THe steel looks substantial as well.

Usual disclaimers, etc etc etc.

Cheers

jeff

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#5

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

Ted in Mpls

>The nice thing about the Sorby is that it is actually 3/8 in. wide, but it is really thin for a mortise chisel, it's more of a heavy duty firmer.

I have a 3/8 in. that came with a crooked handle and won't hold an edge. Even though I'm happy with the 1/4 in. I won't be buying any more Sorbys.

Ted

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#6

Chopping and drilling

Luke Herzberg

>Hey Stephen, you brought up a question that I'd like to know some opinions on as well. Is it better to chop or drill? My mortise experience is still limited, but it seems like the more grunt work that can be done with a drill the better.

Also, what methods are used to keep the mortise square to the surface? I have a little right angle block that I clamp at the edge to help guide the chisel for the final paring, but I'm not sure if the seasoned pros are just doing this by eyeball alone?

Thanks,

Luke

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#7

Re: Two Cherries at Rosewood

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Darlene,

I have a question about the Two Cherries mortise chisels.

First the background:- I bought a Hirsch Mortise chisel when I was in Australia. The Hirsch and Two Cherries chisels appear to be almost identical except for the label. When I got home I found that the chisel was garbage - the chisel was shaped like an parallelagram, (note, this is not a nice even relief towards the front like some mortise chisel have as promoted by Frank Claus, see left picture below, nor a nice square chisel, as promoted by Ian Kirby, it was shaped liked like the diagram on the right)

OK OK Not OK

---- ---- ----

/____\ |____| /___/

Trapezoid Rectangle Parallelagram

I put it down to a bad chisel and wrote it off. However, when I was back at the store last month, I saw that all the Hirsch chisels were shaped like parallelagrams.

Now for my question - what is the profile on the Two Cherries mortise chisels?

And to answer Stephen - based on my experience with the Hirsch chisels, I would avoid them. The Japanese Mortise chisels that I've seen look great, but I'm a bit concerned that they might chip when you're prying out the waste in western hardwoods.

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#8

Re: Two Cherries at Rosewood

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Darn it I forgot to hit preview and my ASCII sketch didn't work.

..OK.............OK................Not OK

..-----...........--------..............------

/____\.........|____|............/___/

Trapezoid.....Rectangle...Parallelagram

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#9

Re: Two Cherries at Rosewood

Dar

>�Now for my question - what is the profile on the Two Cherries mortise chisels?�

Steve,

In answer to your question, Two Cherries mortise chisels have a profile that you have described as a �trapezoid�, but with a very slight taper. Also the shank of the chisel tapers ever so slightly from tip to handle � being slightly larger at the tip to allow a clearance when cutting deep mortises.

Regards,

Darlene

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#10

Thanks Dar

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Does anyone else have Hirsch mortise chisels that are shaped like parallelagrams? Perhaps this store just had a bad batch (but in all sizes, 6 mm, 8mm and 10 mm) - I can't see how this chisel profile would be chosen by design.

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#11

Re: Chopping and drilling

John Kissel

>Hi,

I've always drilled and pared with a chisel. I posted this question on anoher forum awhile back and the results were very heavily leaning towards chopping. I'm still not convinced.

JK

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#12

Re: Chopping and drilling

Stephen in Ottawa

>Luke,

I'm not a 'seasoned pro', however I've cut a few mortises, most recently on a crib I made for my baby. The drill and cleanup method works well, however I feel I spend too much time squaring up the corners and cleaning up the sides. I suspect cleaning the corners will be faster with a beefier chisel. My next project is going to be a baby gate in red oak ( note the 'baby' theme :), with quite a few mortises. I'm going to compare my speed with the two methods.

As to keeping the chisel square to the stock, I'll do that by eye. One possible aid would be to stand a combination square on the bench next to the stock and check your chisel against it to ensure it is square to the stock. Once the mortise has been started properly, the edges of the mortise should guide the chisel through the rest of the depth. In any case, I'll never know unless I try it!

- Stephen

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#13

I suspect the answer is, "It depends."

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>If you look at the bottom of the lock mortise on older house doors, you'll see a bunch of circles with holes in the middle, clear evidence of a brace and bit having been used to clear the waste. A lock mortise leaves very thin sides on the door, and I imagine a chopped mortise would be high risk indeed; plus, you have oodles (technical term) of room to get in there with a chisel to clean it up.

I decided years ago that I was going to get me some o' them mortise chisels after watching Ian Kirby cut a through mortise for a cabinet door stile with one, without even clamping the work down, in about the time it would take me to clamp the work. I'm kind of a slow shopper, though, so the only one I own is a 1/4" found at a garbage sale.

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#14

Re: Two Cherries at Rosewood

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Lots-o-work, but I suppose you could correct that by careful grinding, since the mortise width is a product of the chisel width, not some objective measurement.

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#15

Re: Chopping and drilling

deanj

>> The drill and cleanup method works well,

> however I feel I spend too much time squaring

> up the corners and cleaning up the sides.

I use both the chop 'em all out and the brace (or drill press) and bit route...

Question, do you all square up the corners? I leave mine round and round off the tenon after I cut it. Seems simple, or am I commiting a horrible act? :-)

At any rate it saves time, it is a lot eaiser to round a tenon edge than square up a deep mortise...

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#16

Also...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>When chopping put a handscrew across the wood to keep the sides from "blowing out" (another tech. term) when morticeing. Mr. Kingshott taught me that. Chisels at garbage sales humm... I guess I'm looking in all the wrong places;)

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#17

Re: Also...

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Horns are also your friend when working with smaller stock, such as web frames.

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#18

Re: Chopping and drilling-long :(

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>My suspicion is that the technique so many of you use or were taught is the carpenters� craft. Best for producing poor quality mortises quickly. Its fundamentally inaccurate (whether chopping or drilling and paring).

Chopping is particularly hard on bench and tools. Ever wonder how old mortising chisels have survived so long? Maintaining perpendicularity is difficult. Nothing about the tool or technique assists you. Only your own craftsmanship allows for plumb mortises. Every new set of chops is another opportunity to introduce twist into your mortise. When working wide mortises in small stock one runs the risk of cracking out a thin cheek.

Using a fine edge tool as a level sounds fishy to me, regardless of who says it. (Both Roy Underhill and Mike Dunbar teach this technique). Most of us realize that after a few chops (I say three) a chisel ceases cutting and becomes a wedge.

That said, there are guys whose hand eye coordination is so good that they can pull this off. The tools they seek are essentially cold chisels. How many they can do in a day and how often they stop to sharpen are questions I�ve never had the guts to ask. (Too argumentative, even for me!)

Drilling and paring is common for timber framing. This technique is best when lots of material must be removed. Drilling perpendicular holes by hand is the first challenge. Making several holes parallel is the next. Timber framers/ traditional carpenters eventually developed the beam boring machine for this reason. Paring is accomplished using a long thin framing chisel. I like a curved edge on mine since, despite their size, they are really performing a paring operation. Driving this tool with a mallet generally causes it to undercut (or submarine). The resulting wedge shaped mortise is generally good for a carpenter, bad for the joiner or cabinetmaker.

Evidence of the use of this technique in fine furniture goes back centuries. Good cabinetmakers employed this technique. Unlike the first technique which is generally merit-less, drilling and paring can work okay, save your hands, tools, bench etc. Its use on fine furniture may point to the labor disputes of the time and the very formation of the Joiners Guild. Joiners claimed their building method and mortising technique was superior and sought protection against Carpenters who applied their techniques to furniture. (In most other cultures, no distinction is made between furniture makers and carpenters). They received that protection in 1632. Just as organized labor disputes are common today, the 1632 ruling didn�t stop all carpenters from �joining� furniture. Here in America, without the Guilds� political power, tradesmen pretty much did whatever they wished. That explains the myriad of different techniques employed here.

The only technique that makes sense to me, is easy on tools, and hands, takes full advantage of the key features of mortise chisel, and is similar to other basic period techniques.

Last first. Throughout period joinery we see the repetition of basic principles. Gauging is one, tool slaving is another. When attempting to saw straight, the goal is to put as much of that long straight saw into the kerf as possible (lowering the angle). That way, the cut you make is indexed off of the cut you already made.

The mortise chisel has a few unique features: A very deep blade (which results in a long bevel/bezel). A precisely ground blade width-wise up the length of the tool. A relief or draft ground through the chisel�s sides (depth-wise). An excessively large handle. BTW- The handles are often larger than framing chisel handles and never are seen with metal rings, so the supposition that the handle is sized to manage heavy blows doesn�t seem to fit.

When examining, for lack of a better name, the direct paring technique I advocate and have written about several times, we see so many of the problems, brought here repeatedly, solved. The tool is pushed with one�s shoulder, saving hands, the delicate cutting edge, and the bench. The fat handle is comfortable in the small of the shoulder. The wide bevel sits directly on the work allowing for instant perpendicularity. The long cuts maintain the straightness of the mortise, regardless of the angle chosen, making angled mortises easy and consistent. The precise width of the chisel, registers inside the mortise further improving quality with little help from the craftsman. The resulting mortise is the width of the chisel all the way through.

Put it all together and you�ve got the technique used by (at least some) CW chairmakers. It�s a technique that makes sense, but also fits within the sensibility of period workers, and explains/utilizes the key design features of the tool. Lastly, it�s a secret worth keeping from the carpenter next door. I believe this is the reason we chop mortises today.

Adam

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#19

Re: Chopping and drilling-long :(

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>Adam, I follow you fine... except for one thing: What technique are you advocating?

You state:

The only technique that makes sense to me, is easy on tools, and hands, takes full advantage of the key features of mortise chisel, and is similar to other basic period techniques.

I then see a reference to using the mortise chisel but it's not clear if you are advocating using the mortise chisel as a paring chisel or something else.

Perhaps if you give us all a rundown, step-by-step it will be clearer for dense types like me.

;)

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#20

Horns? Steve...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Could you please explane what they are/do? I'm in total darkness here. Thanks

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#21

Re: Chopping and drilling-long :( *LINK*

JustinW in Ann Arbor, MI

>Here's a link to a previous post on the subject by Adam on WC. There's a picture that clears things up a bit. If you follow that thread a little further, there's a post with a link to the OldTools Archive where Adam presented an enlightening description of his technique. I haven't tried it yet (missed this thread originally) but I'm curious to give it a shot.

- Justin


http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/handtools.pl?read=24392

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#22

Sorry Chris *LINK*

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Chris,

This might sound funny if you try to read too much into it (so don't) but we've had this discussion so many times, I really figured y'all'd be bored if I went through it again. Admittedly my post is a bit tangential, but my point was more about the reasons why we do what we do and how I arrive at the techniques I use, than a how to.

Even though its a controversial technique, I'd like to suggest making an article out of it, since the subject comes up so often, and guys should know what the choices are.

If I stall long enough, Bugbear "Google" Womack will produce a link to previous descriptions. If not, I'll have an answer for you tomorrow. (Articles take longer- would it help if I did my own html?)

Chinese for Dinner tonight!

Adam


paring a mortise

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#23

Amen!!

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>And I will again repeat my hearty "Amen" to ending the misguided and unfortunate tradition of pounding the wood out of the hole. :-)

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#24

Two great mortising links:

GolfSteve in Calgary

>Horns are discussed in the following link. A horn is a bit of extra length left on a piece so that you can cut a mortice near the end of a board without fear of blowing out the end of the mortise when prying out the waste. The horns are cut off either after the mortises are cut, or after the piece is assembled.

Ian Kirby Mortising Article

Here's a great link for analysis of different methods of hand-cutting mortises:

Jeff Greef Woodworking - Mortising links

Re: Mortise chisel advice needed

#25

Actually Jeff Gorman :-)

Kevin F, New Zealand

>

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.