Chisel steel

good question, ordering info

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>First, I want to commend your proposal. One can easily make a lot of their own chisels for the price of a LN set. And the more people that try, the more others will follow, and, we will all learn something from their experience.

You pose a question for which there is too little reliable trial data to provide an answer. I think it has been settled that CPM 3V makes a better knife than A2, for whatever value that experience is to chisels.

The result with either steel will be no better than the quality of the heat treating. Are you going to send the steel out for heat treating to somewhere that has experience with the CPM steels? I am making the assumption that more places have the experience to reliably heat treat A2 than the newer particle steels. The tech staff at CPM have indicated to me that there are places that reliably heat treat their steel-for example, Bos and Southern Metal- and other places that have messed it up. As dinky a place as I live, there is a local heat treat shop that does CPM 3V die material, but I don't use them because I don't trust their quality control.

Compared to A2, CPM 3V is certainly tougher. The 3V will not chip or break which would seem to provide a clear advantage for a mortise chisel. In my hands 3V and A2 sharpen to an equivalent degree. I have been paring lots of end grain on some scallops (uh, thats wood scallops) of late with 3v chisels and the 3V edge passes this test successfully. The 3V is more abrasion resistant during sharpening. One could extrapolate that this observation would mean longer edge retention, but I have no quantitative data to support the hypothesis.

In my hands the 3V is more durable than Two Cherries steel edges, and way more durable than Sorby, but I have no experience comparing to A2. My best guess is that except for mortise chisels, where toughness is of great importance, either A2 or 3V will provide a chisel as good as can be had. 3V could be a bit better in edge retention, but that remains to be proven.

PS the CPM tech people do not believe that cryo treating provides any benefit to a properly heat treated 3V object.

To order CPM material call Scott DeVanna 800 365 1168. Scott is a metalurgist, now in sales, who has worked in steel research, so he can answer technical questions as well as take orders for small quantities of CPM material. He works closely with the knife people, so he is used to working with "small order folks".

Good luck and let us know your experience.

Re: good question, ordering info

Wendell @ Murphy, TX

>I've been reading some stuff about working O1 steel which you can basically do hardening and tempering yourself with torches and an oven. How is this process different for A2 and CPM 3V? I am guessing that you basically get fully annealed A2 or CPM 3V stock, work it to the shape you desire, then send it out for hardening and tempering. Do you still worry about carbon loss on the surface when you get stuff professionally heat treated, ie do you need to make stuff oversized and grind to the desired size after heat treating? Are there any special tools required to work these steel alloys vs O1?

Wendell

Re: good question, ordering info

Jim in Burlington

>I have bought small amounts of O1 for chisels and plane irons. A2 that cryo thing kind of throws me off doing it myself but the prices for it are not that much more. I haven't seen the other steel CPM but am curious as to what the price difference is?

answers to questions

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>CPM 3V is $18 per pound in small quantities. It can usually be supplied so that there is little waste, so the price per tool is nearly insignificant, at least for chisels. A2 is cheaper, BUT. I would not recommend buying any tool steels unless it is from a reputable US supplier. I got some M2 that had poor properties from a foreign source . A2 refers to its composition. How this composition is brought together has a great bearing on performance.

The CPM web site provides heat treating information. It goes something like: heat to 1950 degrees, air cool, then multiple temper cycles to 950 degrees. Final hardness about Rc62. Not something one does at home. Hardness and toughness depends on careful control of these temperatures.

One buys the annealed material, Rc hardness mid 20's. It is readily worked with hack saws, files, grinders, sanders. (see prior posts about 6 months ago for details) Of course real metal working tools are better, but we made over 50 tools with belt sanders (alumina zirconium belts) and a hack saw. A metal cutting band saw would have been real nice to have. (see prior post for a very crude but cheap and effective converting of wood band saw to metal cutting, inventied just in time to do the last tool, oh well).

A knife maker at CPM reported heat treating knives 0.020" thick at the point. From this work I would conclude that heat treat surface "damage" is not very deep. There is a thin layer of black stuff (oxides I suppose)after heat treating that easily abrades off and it is no more than 0.001" thick.

Re: Chisel steel

Todd Hughes

>I would just go and buy an old file made out of cast steel for a twenty five cents and use that. Certainly lots of good old chisels were made out of simple cast steel,[ Witherby, Swan , Buck, W. Butcher, Addis, etc etc] so don't see why it wouldn't work fine today.I have made more then a couple chisels using broken files and iron fence bars and they came out fine.....Todd

Re: Chisel steel

Phil Smith

>If I needed only one specialized chisel or other tool I agree with you. But if you are going to make more than one tool very quickly the price of steel becomes a very small factor compared to the work necessary to make the tools.

Cost for CPM tool steel for a 1/2" chisel ia about $1.75 and heat treating will run from $0.25 to $3.00 each.

The work to fabricate the chisels with home tools is going to be essentially the same no matter what steel you choose.

In my case I choose CPM 3V for its combination of toughness and edge holding ability. Other high performace tools steels are avalilble that have even better edge holding ability but with lower toughness. For example CMP M4 particle steel has significantly better edge holding properties than the CPM 3V and is almost as tough as A2 which is what the many of the premium wood working tools are currently made of.

Re: Chisel steel

Todd Hughes

>Oh, the reason I would use an old cast steel file over buying some new alphabet steel isn't because of the price difference but because I think that cast steel would make a good,[maybe better?] chisel and finding good old files is less trouble to me then going to the hassel of ordering new steel and having it shipped to me.Of corse If I made a set of chisels one large file would be probably all I would need but good steel files are easy to find,[I got buckets of them] so that would be no trouble ....Do have to admit I wouldn't like to have to pay more for somthing that I think is probably no better then somthing I can get cheaper and easier to use but price isn't the reason I would use a file.....Todd

why buy steel, and a request

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Considering the many advantages of making one's own chisels and such, there must be a reason that very few people do it. A compelling advantage is that for an insignificant amount of money, some effort, and no prior experience working metal, one can make a set of A2 chisels (or 3V, or whatever) that will perform equivalent to the future $250 set from LN. This fact will stimulate interest as it becomes apparent to more woodworkers.

I think some of the reason people haven't even considered making their own tools is that they think it involves knowledge of metal working that they don't have, nor care to learn, for example forging, heat treating, etc. Furthermore, these operations will take time doing metal working tasks that a woodworker may not enjoy.

By buying steel and hiring someone to do the heat treating, the person making the tool doesn't need to know anything about steel or metal working to make a tool that will perform as well as any purchased tool, and the time invested will be small.

The only metal working devise necessary is a hack saw, which most people have. The rest of the operations are no different than shaping a piece of wood.

We have published on this Forum all the details necessary to successfully make tools from purchased steel. Since you believe that people should be making tools from files and such, I encourage you to provide equivalently detailed information to enable novices to do so. I am sure some will be encouraged to try and be successful if the instructions are sufficiently detailed.

Re: why buy steel, and a request

Todd Hughes

>I think the reason not many people are making thier chisels whether out of bought steel or files is because excellent older vintage chisels are so common and cheap.When you can pick up a good chisel for $5-$15 with out much trouble you have to wonder about the wisdom of going to the trouble of making your own I would think.I have never certainly advocated making your own chisels out of old files instead of buying good vintage ones.I said if i was going to make a chisel for what ever reason i would use a file as a source of the steel. The chisels that I have made were made because the person wanting them had to have an authentic 18th century style chisel, a chisel that as an original is not easy to find. These chisels were not just cut out of some steel and I really don't see how an ill shaped chisel with out a bolster could begin to compare to a nicely forged vintage chisel no matter what the modern home made one is made out of.Nothing wrong with wanting to make your own chisels just for fun I guess but to go to the trouble of buying the steel, and then just cutting it out to make some chisel and then having to send it out to be heat treated in an attempt to get a better or cheaper chisel then a high quality easly found vintage one I sort of don't get it. I really can't speak to making chisels like this as I have no experance with making these type "chisels". I did post some photos and a how to on the old Badger pond forum once of a chisel I made , maybe when I get some time I will make another one.....Todd

Tool steel question

Luke Herzberg

>Making some chisels is on my "to do" list...albeit probably half a dozen projects down the road.

I am wondering what might be the best method for the home blacsmith to make some socket chisels. Would any special weld prep be necessary to simply weld a mild steel socket to the annealed tool steel?

Thanks,

Luke

Along Lukes Line

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>Not only creating a socket would be nice to know, but how to repair a socket would also be very good to know. I have many socket chisel that some goofs have bashed the top of the sockets and spoiled them. Must been done in recent times as I can see any self-respecting Craftsman from doing something so dumb. I'm thinking that some type of tapered shaft would be needed to reshape these sockets.

Todd, a chisel making treatsie from you would be excellent. When I come up again I have a bunch of old chisels already for a hands on lesson too.

As was recently discovered, I Can Be Trained ;~)

Todd O.