Yet Another Saw Question

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Bob Nelson

>Brent: I don't know for sure about this year, but Tom Law has had a table set up at all the recent past PATINA sales. So you can probably ask him your question there and he'll probably have the type saw you're wanting among his on-site stock. Just be sure the wife doesn't keep you from going. Bob

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Jim Cosgrove

>Brent--As Bob indicated, Tom Law has had a booth at PATINA for the last few years. This year, PATINA will be compressed into one day (Saturday) instead of two. My understanding is that the tool sale is in the morning and the auction will be in the afternoon (instead on Sunday). You may need to hurry up with the sink so you that you can get to Damascus in the a.m.!

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Steve Kubien

>I believe Tom is going. He pointed it (PATINA) to me on the phone a few weeks ago while we were discussing what to do about a couple of saws. He told me if I was going to be there, to be sure and find him so, yeah, he'll be there.

BTW, I've never had saws that cut like they do after Tom gets through with them. He's great and a heckuva nice to boot.

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

sroxberg

>Ok, let me in on the secret, Patina is?

Thank goodness I didn't know about it earlier.

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Jack from Maine

>I don't think Tom Law has much to do with the internet.I could be wrong,but this is the impression I got.You reach him in person or by phone/mail.I bought an old english made backsaw on ebay for $2 and had him shape,set and sharpen the teeth. I learned dovetailing on it and use it all the time.It cuts perfectly.---Jack

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Jim in Burlington

>If you lookin to save a few bucks see if someone has Tom's video on saw sharpening maybe the library. I think it's a load of fun to tinker with saw sharpening.

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Now here's a question for ya:

What should I be looking for? Is there a resource on the web that can give me an overview without overwhelming me with detail?

So what you are looking for is a sales pitch!

I think saws are the most important tools in the pre-industrial shop and among the most complicated. Understanding more about how saws work will make you a better woodworker (power or no- saw teeth are saw teeth). When you provide the power, things become clear fast.

Unfortunately I don't no where to send you to learn what you need to know. There have been many days that I wished there was a Blood and Gore webpage for saws. Pete Taran's www.vintagesaws.com comes pretty darn close.

Without knowing more about you or your work, its difficult to know make specific recommendations on what to look for.

In my shop there are few saws that see proportionally more use. I figure most people would find them helpful. Believe it or not, they are neither traditional nor difficult to find.

Look for a 20" long hand saw with a toe at least 2" tall (indicating the blade isn't filed away). File this baby cross cut, maybe 9-11ppi. Almost every saw maker made a saw this size. You don't hold it long enough to get blisters, so there's no need to splurge on a pricey model.

See if you can pick up a 14-16" Disston No. 4 (or is it a D4?) back saw. File this 10-13 ppi x-cut. If you can find two, file the longer one rip, same pitch for use as a tenon saw.

FYI: Crosscut saws probably didn't exist in the pre-industrial workshop, but they sure are handy. I use that little panel saw for just about everything. When a work piece is really small or I need an accurate miter, tenon shoulder cut, or finished cross cut, I use that 16" backsaw. Very handy. These are saws folks like us fall in love with.

Adam

Re: A Most Curious Phenomenon

William Duffield on the Cohansey

>If you get there early, Tom will have some saws for sale, good steel, already sharpened and tuned up, not necessarily the prettiest saws, but excellent users. They won't last long.

There will be lots and lots of other saws, at auction, on sales tables, under a tarp in the back of a pickup, covered with frost (or just dew if you're lucky) sometime before dawn, some of them dogs, some really good saws but in need of a little TLC.

Tom sells everything he brings with him. So, why does he go home with a LOT more saws than he came with? All the other choice, newly acquired, saws go home with him to be sharpened, saving postage one way.

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Brent Langdon, Sterling VA

>Thanks. The Vintage Saws site was interesting. I found some useful information in the articles, but the prices on the "for sale" saws kind of scared me.

> Without knowing more about you or your work, it's difficult to

> make specific recommendations on what to look for.

I am just an amateur woodworking trying to figure out how to make furniture. I set up my shop a few years ago with a couple power tools, but I am finding hand tools appealing. I am not looking to replace my table for ripping and crosscutting yet. I would like to learn to hand cut dovetails and I have not found the tablesaw or router to be that great of tools for cutting tenons.

I purchased the LV Dozuki based on a recommendation from either here or the pond. The truth is that I have not used it enough to know if I like it (two young sons and a third due next month make shop time hard to come by). I was hoping that I could pick up a couple western-style saws to try out without dropping a load of cash.

- Brent

Re: Yet Another Saw Question  *LINK*

Brent Langdon, Sterling VA

>


http://www.patinatools.org/auction.html

Re: A Most Curious Phenomenon

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Good idea. If Tom is out of dovetail saws, buy one from another vendor, and then hand it to Tom for toothing and sharpening.

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Clay C in Miami

>"don't think that I could tell a vintage saw from a junker"

A 'vintage saw' is one I'm dickering to sell.

A 'junker' is one I'm dickering to buy.

As to what to look for, the other posts give good advice - I'd say it's more or less like planes, you want it straight and not pitted. Straight is important - I know that kinks can be taken out, but with the sea of saws out there, no need to go that way.

Have fun. I read about these tool shows, and turn a deep forest green with envy - no such beasts here in S. Florida. (OTOH, today's high will be 84. Though in truth, I'm happier at 64 than 84.)

Clay

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

todd stock

>Previous buys at PATINA:

Apple-handed Thumbhole Disston D-8 Rip (28", no kinks, dull, original nuts and finish on blade - $18

16" Disston Back Saw w/ painted handle - $8 (handle stripped and shellaced - works fine, and I always smooth off the edges on the store-bought handles anyway...users are users, right?)

Smaller dovetail/carcass saws are pretty common, and can go from sow's ear to silk purse via Law's services. The brass backs on the Adriana and LN are nice but strictly an appearance item - steel backs work fine.

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Joe Rogers,Northern Virginia

>Last year there was a gent from the Richmond VA area tailgating with a pickup load of used saws for sale. Seemed dissapointed that they weren't selling very fast. Bought a nice D7 with nib sharpened and straight for $15 or $20 don't remember which. Nice saw. VERY affordable. If I found a dull nice piece I would definately give it to Tom after purchase. No excuse in coming home from PATINA without a saw if you want one.JR

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Adam Cherubini, NJ

> the prices on the "for sale" saws kind of scared me.

I used to think Pete's prices were high. Especially when you consider you can find saws for under $10. Ditto for LN and Adria. Now I see I spend many hours restoring saws and so their prices seem reasonable given the labor. Still, its good honest work (restoring saws) and worthwhile IMHO.

I am just an amateur woodworking trying to figure out how to make furniture. I set up my shop a few years ago with a couple power tools, but I am finding hand tools appealing. I am not looking to replace my table for ripping and crosscutting yet. I would like to learn to hand cut dovetails and I have not found the tablesaw or router to be that great of tools for cutting tenons.

Great. Then I stand by my recommendations. Cross cutting with a panel saw is much easier than using a table saw or a chop saw and only marginally slower. The crosscut backsaw is also a handy tool. As dovetail teeth are so difficult to file, and really nice older DT saws are difficult to find, I'd recommend compromising and purchasing a new LN or Adria.

FYI: I do not recommend the SUBSTITUTION of pull saws for western spined pushed saws. These (japanese) saws, regardless of the ad copy, are designed to be used in a different way and a in different shop. Some woodworkers here use them and disagree with me.

If you want to learn more about traditional woodworking methods, I wholeheartedly recommend finding yourself a good rip or half-rip saw. You'll quickly discover sawing is drudgery. If you remain disciplined, shortly after that you learn how to tune your saw teeth for specific jobs/woods. A few months later you figure out how to work wood without ever ripping anything! I think its a worthwhile journey.

Happy Hunting!

Adam

Half Rip?

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>What is this of which you speak Adam?

Todd O.

Re: Half Rip?

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Todd,

Holtzapffel listed saws by the name used at the time (London 1846). This list is reproduced in Salaman's Dictionary of woodworking tools. I use the terminology in my shop to distinguish between the various rip saws.

Holtzappfel's list looks something like this:

Rip saw = 3-4ppi

half rip 4ppi

hand saw (shorter) 5ppi

fine rip saw 6ppi

panel saw 7ppi

In my post, I just meant to say half rip is a finer rip saw. (These are pretty common). I think Disston made a bunch of these stamped 5 (tpi).

BTW I think a half rip is no substitute for a full rip when working 4/4 or thicker pine. There is a significant difference between the saws. Also, I have the rake angles set for certain woods. My full rip has a near 0 rake.

Adam

Re: Half Rip?

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Interesting. This is the first time I had heard of names for rip saws similar to names for iron planes and names for frog pitches. Little details like this show the breadth of this craft.JR

Re: Half Rip?

Bob Nelson

>I'd also been surprised by Adam's info about the half rip saw. When he'd originally used that term, I'd thought he was that he was referring to a saw like the Disston D17 which was a combination rip and cross cut saw. Live and learn! Bob

Re: Yet Another Saw Question

Larry Marshall

>When you send saws to Tom for sharpening, do you do anything special to avoid taxes/customs fees when the saws are returned to you?

Cheers --- Larry Marshall

Quebec City, QC