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Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

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Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#1

Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

sroxberg

>Ok, after the last thread suggested that I actually practice saw cuts (I thought buying the most expensive dovetail saw known would have done it)I am humbled, and have been practicing.

The vertical cuts at slight angles seem easy after thirty or so, but I am still having problems with the angled cuts, pins I assume (this whole pins and tails thing is confusing).

Any hints on how to cut these? I've already thought up a jig in my mind, but does anyone have any pointers?

I'll sweep your shop floor like an apprentice if you tell me the trick. (just kidding, but tell me anyway)

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#2

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi

>I'm assuming you are asking about cutting the tails when you say the angled cut. I read somewhere to angle the board so that the cut you make is actually vertical. I do this by setting a small try square on my vise and lining up one side of the tail with that, cutting all the sides of the tails that are vertical, then resetting the board so the other lines are vertical and cutting them.

Jim Crammond

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#3

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

Dan Donaldson

>Try playing with your stance and arm/hand position. I find that where and how I stand has a lot to do with how well I can visualize the cut to get it straight. Play with stance and head position to see if it makes a difference for you.The saw can also make a difference. For me, I seem to have better luck with the straight handled saws, which seems a bit counterintuitive, but I can make the angled cuts better with them. I have both the LN independence and straight handled saws and prefer the straight one. Others have differing views. Whichever type of saw you have, see if you can get hole of the other and try it.

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#4

My limited experience...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>...for what it's worth:

First, get the kerf started. This is where all my fitting problems arise - my cuts are nice and straight, but the gaps I end up with all are tracable to starter kerfs that aren't completely square to the face. Once the kerf's started, start angling the cut. The trick I was shown was to use your guide hand (i.e. - the one not sawing) index finger to help guide the blade. Move your arm in a straight forward-and-back motion, wrist straight, grip firm but not too tight, letting the saw's weight do the cutting. Keep the blade solid in the kerf with your guide hand index finger. If the kerf isn't hitting the angle you want, you might be able to correct it slightly, but don't use this as a standard technique. Better to learn the right angle to start with and hit it from the beginning. Overcorrecting leads to sloppy joints, and it's a sloppy technique. If the angles aren't all perfect, it'll look handcut, and you get the mating piece from the one you just cut, anyway. You'll quickly develop a feel for the precise angle from the start.

That's how it was shown to me - probably not 100% correct, and there are other ways, but this is working for me so far.

Scott, maybe practicing sawing at naptime today...

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#5

Dovetail sawing technique

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Yeah, there is a trick to sawing dovetails. Its no secret, so I'm surprised guys either don't know it or don't use it. But I'm gonna describe it because I really need my shop swept out. I'm up to my ankles in cedar shavings. I feel like a hamster!

In both instances, tails and pins, the boards are clamped vertically. The marking gauge (or cutting gauge) marks the depth of cut on both sides. I use a pencil to mark across the face on the near side, and across the end grain on top.

Now you'll notice that the dovetail saw has a special handle. Its either a straight turned handle or an open handle high above the spine. The reason for this strange handle is to avoid an uncomfortable angle of your wrist when using the following technique.

The dovetail saw is held with its toe pointed up at a 30 - 45 degree angle (see what I mean about the handle?). The saw cut is begun at the near corner. The cut progresses on both pencil lines at once. If one line goes astray, you can back out and recut it, by ceasing progress on the good line while fixing the bad. Just remember: When cutting tails first you need to hold the endgrain/square line at the expense of the angled line. Since you'll mark the pins from the actual saw cuts, the angles needn't be perfect. When you come to do the pins later, you must hold both lines. To finish the cut (through the material you can't see), you rely on the fine set of your saw. The blade will track in the kerf you have carefully made.

When sawing out half blind pins, you overcut approx one inch on the face side (below the marked line). With each passing stroke you bury your saw's heel into drawer back, digging out that corner (reason number two for the saw handle position). You can saw out almost all of it this way. The thin lines in your drawer backs are nothing to be ashamed of. They are very difficult to see, most people will never notice. The finest furniture have these overcuts.

There may be other techniques. This is just the way I do it. But it makes sense when you look at old saws. It explains the wierd grip, the need for little set, its fast and clean. As I've said before, the time to shoot for is one hour per drawer (I can't do it). That doesn't leave much time for paring or jigs or any of that nonsense. Its not a difficult technique and won't take you more than a few days to master. The technique/concept of "sawing the corners out" is useful for other operations.

The other trick I've mentioned before is knowing where to saw. That took me some time to figure out. You'll have to figure that out for yourself. Its actually pretty complicated. It is related to how you chisel, and how and where you locate the drawer side to the drawer front when you mark.

I leave the line on the pins (which is irrelevant, but that's what I do). I saw out the line on the tails. When I leave the line I have trouble dry fitting. Sometimes when I beat dovetails together, I have trouble when I introduce glue. Good to leave a little room for glue.

Adam

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#6

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

paul womack

>Most people find the vertical cuts easier.

This is one of the reasons to recommend tails first; you get small variations on the (difficult) tail cuts, and then make the (easy) pin cuts conform to whatever variability the tails ended up with.

BugBear

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#7

Re: Dovetail sawing technique

George Makowski

>Adam, I couldn't have said it better myself. The method you describe is easy and self-correcting as most really good traditional methods are at their core.

George in AL

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#8

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

Charles

>Put the thought of a jig out of your mind. One of the great things about hand tool woodworking is that we need far fewer jigs to do our work. You don't need one when cutting dovetails.

Keep practicing. You may need to upgrade to a better saw. If your blade has any bow in it from end to end it MIGHT cause a problem.

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#9

Re: Dovetail sawing technique

Charles

>Good description. However, I'd suggest the poster learn to cut pins first. Casework dovetails (read dovetails on wide workpieces) are difficult to mark out (to me at least) if the tails are cut first. And the famous secret mitered dovetail must be cut pins first.

Might as well learn pins first in order to keep one's options open.

I naturally gravitated, it turns out, to Tage Frid's methods - pins first, no coping saw, I even cut a serviceable joint with a rip bowsaw (for kicks).

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#10

Re: Dovetail sawing technique

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>Great tip, Adam! Tried it, and worked like a charm. Which is also good, 'cause it means I can start sawing again (though that may be a bad thing).

You know, I've wondered about the whole overcutting half-blinds thing for a while. Glen Huey mentioned it in a book, and it was the first I'd heard of it. Your comment was the second. Have to file it away for when I work on half-blinds.

Scott, steak's rubbed and portabello's marinating...

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#11

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

sroxberg

>Once again excellent advice as always. I have some Poplar ready to be sawn up this evening.

Wow, this is fun, but frustrating.

Re: Practicing saw cuts for dovetails

#12

Re: Dovetail sawing technique

paul womack

>The dovetail saw is held with its toe pointed up at a 30 - 45 degree angle (see what I mean about the handle?). The saw cut is begun at the near corner. The cut progresses on both pencil lines at once.

This is (of course) the same technique used to saw tenon cheeks accurately.

BugBear

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