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A Sad Day *LINK*

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A Sad Day *LINK*

#1

A Sad Day *LINK*

Regs in Kitchener

>For all of you who can remember when Record made a decent tool, I would suggest a look at the following.That would seem to be the end for them, I mean you may as well buy any old made in China effort rather than a new Record. Despite what they tell you at Irwin the newer clamps, planes, etc., just don't have the same well made feel as the made in England ones.

Its a sad day when you can see years of tradition thrown away for the sake of a quick buck. Although, perhaps I'm just rambling......


http://www.fairfieldauctions.co.uk

Re: A Sad Day *LINK*

#2

Re: A Sad Day

George Forest

>Yes, it is a sad day for this, until now, illustrious company to be asset-stripped by Rubbermaid. I think they should have just stuck to what they did best - making plastic bowls. Hopefully the rest of us will now respect and support the rest of the companies that are out there making quality goods. Otherwise there will be nothing left for our children - other than highly prized, worn out antiques.

That is my 2� worth.

George

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#3

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Steve knight

>it is sad. I have two vices and a few other things.

well atleast I am trying (G)

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#4

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John Horobin

>It is indeed a sad day - I went up on Saturday to have a look round while I could. At one point 1700 people were employed there. Some of the machinery looked as it it could have dated from the second world war. The production then was regarded so important that plans of vices etc was taken by the goverment for security just in case the factory was bombed.

It was nice to see the production lines where all the planes etc were made I must say - and the foundry which is now idle.

I think to some degree though you must blame the management before the American Tool takeover for letting things drift.

John

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#5

OT: A Sad Day

Rob Lee

>John -

You if you think that's sad - search for "rubbermaid" and "plant closing" (Newell-Rubbermaid is the parent company)...

You'll find Record Tools -

You'll find Amerock (450 jobs) -

You'll find Quick-Grip (100's of jobs)-

You'll find Rubbermaid (Winfield) 100+ jobs -

You'll find Rubbermaid (Greenville) 300+ jobs -

You'll find Rubbermaid (Wooster) 850+ jobs -

You'll find Rubbermaid (Cleburne) 300+ jobs -

You'll find Rubbermaid (Greenville) 300+ jobs -

Then I gave up....

All went to China/Pacific Rim.

Do I blame management for this? No - not exclusively. Shareholders demand that returns get maximized, retailers chase the lowest costs - driven by consumers.

Ultimately - it's many of "us" that own the stocks/shares in these companies, or that drive the demand at the Wal-mart's, Box stores, and clearance outlets.

We all approve/disapprove of the markets actions daily - we all vote with our dollars...

Rob Lee

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#6

Re: A Sad Day

Todd Hughes

>If they made a product that enough people wanted they would have staid in business.If that product was one that LOTS of people wanted they would have done great bussiness.They didn't and that is why they went belly up.Maybe kind of sad but Pretty simple...I would imagine it is hard to compete in such a small nich market.Personaly I don't understand why sombody would pay more for a new tool when a simular old one is avaiable often for less and is of better quality, believe many others probably think the same way. To say we should suport modern tool makers so that they stay in bussiness strikes me as a strange form of welfare. I look out for the best deal for me....Todd

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#7

Re: OT: A Sad Day

Dirk Wright

>yes, by law CEO's are required to protect shareholder assets, so part of the blame is with those that have invested in the company and demanded profitable returns. The closing of Record is just another sign in the decline of western civilization, in this case the loss of respect for and knowledge of crafts. This is one of the reasons I am essentially obsessed with hand crafts. Once oil depletion becomes more of a reality, it will be too expensive to import crafted items from abroad and more things will be made locally, slowly reversing the trend of craft-type jobs heading to the far east. I'm talking in broad strokes here so as not to take up much bandwidth, so please pardon my criptic sentences.

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#8

Re: A Sad Day

SW_IOWA_SAWYER

>I have two record hand planes good quality tools. It is sad to see them close, however to somehow say that this indicates the decline of western civilization. We are seeing a change in our country as we move into the more high tech fields. It is a cycle that has happened before and we have adapted. This country still makes fine products we are just seeing some items made in a cheaper labor market. I guess I am guess not seeing the decline of our country because China can make a cheaper widgit. Just struck me wrong I guess.

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#9

Re: A Sad Day

Jean-Michel in Montreal

>It's my first post here, but I just had to add my 0.02$!

Yes a big tree fell in the forest and for that it may seem like a sad day, but the forest is so healthy and diversified that I don't fell like being sad. Thomas Lie-Nielsen is producing high quality plane (and other tools) and employing a lot of people. The same can be said for Rob Lee who is producing a large array of general and specialized planes at prices (almost) comparable to those of record's. Even Steve Knight's business, is getting more and more orders (at least from what I see in the different forums). And there is all those infill planes (the pricey ones) that can be had even in kit form.

It may be a sad day, but the future looks bright!

Cheers

Jean-Michel

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#10

Re: A Sad Day

Ernie Miller Topeka

>Good way of putting it. I don't own a Record would have liked to have gotton a vice but that is out for me.

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#11

Re: A Sad Day

Alan Hamilton

>Sad?

But we all need look no farther than posts on this site for the reasons why all this has happened. I've read many, many posts here about "don't buy a new Record," "Record's quality isn't what it was" and the like.

I'm not saying that those posters, and those like them among the consumers of Record's products, are to blame: Record is to blame. If they (and Stanley) had made different decisions years ago about what shape the company ought to be, and what they would try to achieve, we would not be having this discussion.

When the Rams moved from Anaheim some years ago, I remember seeing the justification given by the owner and managers: the fans weren't giving the team enough "support" (read 'buying tickets') or that the fans had deserted the team. An article about this appeared (I don't remember where) saying that the Rams had deserted the fans long before the fans stopped attending their games: the Rams deserted their fans by putting a mediocre, losing team on the field year after year, for longer than a decade.

Record has deserted wood working consumers in the same way: to a large extent they stopped making products that wood workers wanted to buy.

Sad? Perhaps. But Records demise was of their own making.

Alan

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#12

Re: A Sad Day

John Horobin

>One tends to forget that woodworking tools was only a proportion of Records business. A lot of the tools were for heavy engineering etc. But the major problem was the decision of the then owners to sell out to American Tools which was then bought by Rubermaid. They then made the decision to move the production to increase profits...

John

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#13

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Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>I see it this way. Money is at the bottom of it, and it's gonna bite us in the butt here real soon. Seems so many manufactures are looking at the immediate small picture and not the long-term big picture. quiliaty went down to increase profits, and that wasen't good enough for them. than they (big manufactures)(and I'll limit this to U.S. ones, tho I think many Canadian and UK manufactures did the same thing) discovered that they could save even more money buy using cheap overseas labor. Add in the less restrictive environmental controls, etc, etc and they all bailed. So what's gonna happen say 10, 20, 30 years from now when so much of our big manufactuing is done in "Overseas" countries and they suddenly decide to say GOTTA CHA'!? Yeah, that'll be real interesting times eh? China is starting to smarten up and we are pumping in billions of dollars into their economy which they are using to "advance" themselves. The recently took a major step forward(for them) by putting a man in space. Soon, real soon, they will be a force to reckon with if they so decide to be, and we'll have no one to blame but ourselves. Financial Greed will be our undoing in the long run.

Broke my heart when Bass Shoe left Maine for overseas. :~(

Better stop, as this borders on the political side, but I think it is time that we all start buying products made At Home.

Todd O.

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#14

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Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>I think it's a sad day, too. When you lose the jobs, you lose the knowledge. You lose the cadre of people who worked together to create and hold that knowledge. The knowledge is shipped overseas and it is gone for good. How do you recreate it? It's similar to cutting down the old growth redwoods to make houses. That's a market outcome, too. But when they're all cut down, then what?

England without Sheffield is a different England. America is in the same boat with England on this matter. Rob Lee's list elsewhere in this thread shows that. America's core abilities are being liquidated to create shareholder value and favorable quarterly reports right along with the English ones.

So the bell tolls for us, too. I don't know what the answer is, maybe there is none, but I don't worship the market.

Wiley

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#15

Re: A Sad Day

Tony Z.

>What good is technology if there is nothing for the technology to administer? As with a fancy checkbook that is no good if the balance is zip. Our strength is in productive domestic industry and not hamburger stands, parasite banks, insurance companies and retail stores (unless the wholesale product is produced internal to this country).

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#16

Re: OT: A Sad Day

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>Interesting point Dirk about the Oil prices...

I suspect you know something about the "Peak Oil" theory....

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#17

Re: A Sad Day

Frank D.

>I'm no financial expert, but I saw an amazing documentary the other day about cheap Chinese goods flooding the Canadian market. They showed us a carbide cutter factory in China that made, among other things, router bits. Well, it seems that there are over 300 factories in China making router bits, so the competition is ferocious within China itself. Now how do you think that a factory can turn out a $1 router bit? Not just by cutting labour costs. In fact, they can't cut costs beyond a certain point, so they use the loans they (or their government) get mostly from foreign investors, i.e. from pension funds and the like, to subsidize producing router bits at a loss. That's right, they use North American and European pension funds to subsidize production that wipes out North American and European companies. It takes no expert to figure out this can't go on forever...

Frank D. in Montreal

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#18

Re: A Sad Day

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>George, this seems an overly harsh slam against Rubbermaid, an upstanding example of corporate America, they're trying so hard to please us all. I just love my Rubbermaid trash can.

Pam

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#19

Re: A Sad Day

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Subject: RE: A Sad Day

Posted By: Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX pam@pinehill.com

Date: Tuesday, 2 March 2004, at 8:39 p.m.

The answer is that in 10 years we'll all have to be salespeople to have jobs, selling all those goodies from China, India, et al; which will then own our technology that we've given them. I suppose there'll be a few different types of jobs, like farmers (yes, let's grow many junky "food" items, all genetically modified), interior decorators (which may be closer to sales than you'd think), architects, highway engineers (got to move those goods made elsewhere), and dock workers. Oops, almost forgot all those politicians we'll need to make us feel good about it.

Pam

Re: A Sad Day *LINK*

#20

Re: OT: A Sad Day *LINK*

Dirk Wright

>Yes, I do.


ASPO

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#21

Re: A Sad Day

SW_IOWA_SAWYER

>I shouldn't but I will......

Quality built products made here will continue to do well. I watched a show on the development of the new fighter on PBS Made in America by Americans, our workers our the most productive in the World so as such we end up needing less of them. Those Evil corporations are fighting for their lives from overseas competition so they have to lower costs to compete. Those evil corporations also are in your 401k's, IRA's, pension funds...... So I am sure you are all willing to have less money during your golden years. I own a farm and I raise roundup ready corn who developed that (hint: not China) less chemicals needed to kill weeds better for the enviro. Our economy is changing, change can be a scary thing, but it is inevitable we have always blazed the way. Remember when people thought that Japan was going to own everything in the USA. I still like to buy American if I can but I won't buy junk to save somebodies job.

Re: A Sad Day *LINK*

#22

Re: OT: A Sad Day

Ben Knebel

>Rob;

As always--a thoughtful response.

It always hurts me deeply to see venerable old company's with a good product record:) bite the dust.

There are a multiplicity of issues here.

The need for constant increases in sales, profits and stock returns by a society and a business community that considers a 6 month plan a long term strategy drives much of what is happening. Although capitalism and democracy are the best social and economic systems yet developed they are very much snakes eating their own tails and when they reach their own heads--and they will--what will we do then?

When there are no longer 3rdW countries--sorry--developing counties-- with cheap labour pools to draw on and when factories can't be moved to cheaper realestate what do you do then---the next 25- 50 years will see exactly that happen.

And scarier still--in this world of terrorism---what will countries do that have all thier heavy industry offshore and no longer have even their own steel manufacturies--and the countries that produce your goods get clobbered and a goodly portion of your entire industrial infrastrucure is no longer here --but over there --as are the skills and the knowledge.

And all that is to say nothing of the number of jobs that are going offshore and all the folks that will be displaced and dispossessed because of it.

We can't all become knowledge workers or information workers or software designers or internet webmasters---ooops forgot---all of that is going offshore as well.

We forget that you can't eat information nor can you drive it nor will it protect you from the rain or keep you clothed. To be sure information and knowledge will help you do all those things but when you no longer have the infrastructure to do them here --what then?

Although all this sounds rather pessimistic I'm not ---I do believe we will solve these problems ---but not until some of our social and economic systems develop processes that take a longer view and become far less instant gratification driven and the pain will be tremendous as we amke our way there.

As Rob says --we all vote with our dollars --everyday---we have to vote a little differently in the future.

As closing thought---Walmart goes bankrupt and there is no one to buy their stores and countinue the business and the stores begin to close---how many smaller towns will be left without clothing stores--grocery stores---pharmacies-- photo shops---opticians--harware stores---sporting goods stores---shoe stores?---a lot more than you think. For fun--imagine no walmart , lowes or home depot near you--they all close---now go find a hardware store.

Regards

Ben

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#23

Re: A Sad Day

Dirk Wright

>I agree that we as a nation are losing our talents for making things because corporations are "forced" to relocate overseas, but I just want to point out that within 10 years all this stuff won't matter. By then, oil depletion will have set in, and climate change will have become ever present. We will be fighting to survive rather than worry about this or that.

BTW, archtiects and highway engineers are readily available in China right now, and are being used as subcontractors by US firms. Of course, they cost a fraction of their US counterparts.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that capitalism has a fundamental flaw, which is that it depends on slave or near-slave workers at the bottom. So, as corporations have opened up markets by getting politicians to create free trade zones, they have migrated to the lowest labor cost countries to maximize profits for their shareholders. Eventually, assuming that natural resources don't run out, capitalism will eventually run out of slaves. I don't know what happens at that time, but I'll still be using Steven Knight's planes and making stuff by hand.

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#24

Well Dirk have you seen *LINK*

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>... this site?

someone sent that link my way a few weeks ago...


http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Re: A Sad Day *LINK*

#25

Re: A Sad Day

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yes, maybe you're correct. I certainly think that we spend way too much time competing with each other and way too little participating in reciprocal altruism. I'd be happy if our society were more like that of a hunting and gathering society; so maybe that will be the good thing to come of peak oil, smaller and more supportive societies.

As to Peak Oil, I've been wondering what happened to all the talk in the '70's of the end of the oil supply. I've been planning a tiny, home style windmill, may ramp up production; and certainly will start a rain water collection system that will be incorporated into the garden. And I've never been fond of debt.

However, there is a lot of talent in the world that's going unused; and I don't buy it that corporations are "forced" to relocate overseas. I'm even in favor of globalism in theory, but find the practice a bit odious. Who knows, maybe the economics of it will force a world government and more cooperation. One can always hope.

All that said, this is my final post on WC. I'll be spending more time on actual woodworking and my novel, to say nothing of enlarging the workshop and vegetable garden, and perhaps participating on a whole new level in the upcoming elections. I hope everyone here has a good year.

Pam

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