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chisel side bevels

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chisel side bevels

#1

chisel side bevels

Jack from Maine

>I'm looking for a chisel with a side bevel that is narrower than two cherries bench chisels. When paring the baseline on dovetails if I use a chisel of a size close to the width at the base of the tails the square part of the side marks the side of the tail. To clear this I need to go to a smaller size chisel and I end up with too many chisels on the bench. Is there a bevel edge chisel with a narrower edge? Brand? Style? Are japanese chisels narrower? How about parers?

Thanks---Jack

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#2

David Barnett

Re: chisel side bevels

David Barnett

>Jack, you might want to find a true paring chisel; long, flat and flexible. Most beveled chisels are really more beveled firmers than true parers. If you can't find an old one, Sorby makes the 241 Paring Chisel which has a very thin 9" blade in a boxwood handle. Although the steel isn't what it could be, it's still better than some newer parers I've come across, namely the Crown.

Perhaps better still would be a triangular cross-section Japanese dovetail chisel. Harder and finer steel at the edge, good construction, good geometry; what you'd expect. My favorite Japanese DT chisel is a white steel 1/8", which gets used not only on those tiny DTs but on lots of other cheanup jobs, as well.

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#3

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GolfSteve in Calgary

>You can buy Japanese dovetail chisels that have a very narrow edge, and spread at about a 1:8 angle (ie. they are triangular in cross section) - I have a 3/8" one that works great.

For other sizes, I have a 1/4" Marples blue chip chisel where I have ground down & rounded the sides. It's now about 3/16" wide, but only half the thickness that it used to be. I use this to get into the dovetail corners.

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#4

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Jack from Maine

>I was considering modifying my blue chips. That may be a good temporary solution.

Anyone ever try Veritas detail chisels?

Jack

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#5

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Jack from Maine

>Steve, what brand is your Japanese dovetail chisel?---Jack

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#6

Jim in Burlington Ont.

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Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I don't know if you can see it in Rob cosman's videos he has filed up that one chisel to clean dovetail but he has another that is small and rounded over and I saw it in another video someone had filed a chisel smaller.

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#7

Ones I'm familiar with...

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Jack,

In a bench-size hooped chisel, the Tasai dovetails, from www.japanesetools.com. In a paring chisel, the Tasai verithins. If interested, check with Harrelson about these and other possibilities.

Hida Tool's Masashige dovetails are also beveled right down to the ground (www.hidatool.com).

Of course, you could take about any chisel to a 220-grit stone (or whatever), and bevel the sidewalls yourself.

Wiley

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#8

What's Harrelsons?

Jack from Maine

>I never heard the name before. Is that a person or a website,store? I'll check japanesetools.com. I was looking at some of Joels offerings at Tools for woodworking but they sure get pricey.---Jack

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#9

Re: What's Harrelsons?  *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>


Hiraide, Harrelson Stanley's place

Re: chisel side bevels

#10

Re: chisel side bevels

GolfSteve in Calgary

>I dunno (and I'm away from home right now and can't check). It looks like the same manufacturer that provides Japanese chisels to Lee Valley - same handles, same label, etc. However, Lee Valley does not carry the dovetail chisels. I bought them from Carbatec in Australia.

Carbatec had two types of Japanese dovetail chisel from the same manufacturer - one had a long paring handle (no steel hoop, not for mallet use), and one that had a shorter handle with the steel hoop. The short handle is what I bought (it was $40; the long handled version was $70).

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#11

Re: What's Harrelsons? *LINK*

Lloyd Robins

>Joel has dovetail chisels that are excellent. I understand that Harrelson's are excellent also. But if you think that Joel's are expensive wait until you see the Tasai prices. I just bought 3 more of Joel's Nishiki's. Here is his address.


http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com

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#12

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paul womack

>Older BE chisels normally have very fine sides.

I have some Ward & Payne and I/Sorby chisels with sides circa 1/32" inch.

BugBear

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#13

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Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Is there a bevel edge chisel with a narrower edge?

I can�t answer your question, but I find it interesting.

Dovetailed carcasses took over as the dominant furniture joinery style about 300 years ago. By the close of the 18th century (approx 100 years after its introduction) carcass joinery had evolved into a high art form. Workers quickly produced cabinets and drawers of all shapes and sizes. As markets changed, the super high quality furniture waned, but workmen continued to use dovetailed carcasses as their preferred joinery. The dovetailed carcass disappeared with the widespread use of plywood and other wood by-product building materials in the early 20th century.

(interestingly the state of the art of joinery reverted to the medieval boarded style- That�s where we are today. Making furniture with fasteners!)

For 150 of the 200 years that carcass joinery dominated furniture construction, workmen used square-sided chisels. The bevel edged chisel first appeared in the late 19th century. Arguably the finest dovetail workmanship, on the finest pieces was executed using square sided chisels.

Today, workmen regard the use of a bevel edged chisel for dovetailing de rigueur. What is it we�re missing?

Hoping to solve this mystery, I put aside my set of Hirsch bevel edged chisels for square-sided antiques two years ago. Over that time, I changed handles several times until finally arriving at the tapering octagonal pattern I use today. In the past two years I�ve cut maybe 1000 dovetails or so, maybe more. Made several large carcasses 4, 5?

I never much noticed the loss of the beveled edge. Sometimes there is a little stuff left in the corner. I take that out, by angling the chisel or with a smaller chisel. When you say pare, not sure if that�s what you mean. I pretty much never pare. I chop out the waste and that�s that. Time to beat is one hour per drawer. (I can�t do it with half blind fronts). But there�s no time for paring. As for multiple sizes, I use the chisel to layout the dovetail spacing. One chisel chops the waste. You do have to leave a little extra like you said, to avoid marring the tail�s side. The narrow back of the dove�s tail is another chisel, needed for the pin side.

In conclusion, I�m not sure that the bevel edged chisel is all that advantageous. Guys got by without them for 150 years. The sharper that bevel, the weaker the corner, so really sharp bevels wouldn�t make great firmers. You might find with some careful planning that you can get by with what you�ve got.

Adam

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#14

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Ernie Miller Topeka

>time to beat one hout? is this a challange? I think I do better than that about one side of a tape when listening to a book. or about two adjustments of the lantern wick. I'm doing a bunch I'll time myself tonight only about 12 drawers to go on the bench.

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#15

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Jack from Maine

>I don't doubt that my problem may be due to technique. I barely have one. All this is new to me.I've been building basic functional things for years using power tools.The only time I ever used a chisel was for mortising hinges onto a new door.My only plane was a $6 stanley block for cleaning up saw cuts and such. I am learning to craft using mostly hand tools.Since I learned to dovetail I've been dovetailing everything. Someday I'll be able to make one without gaps but for now I'm just trying to find the tools that work best for me.For the way I'm doing them right now the answer appears to be a narrower bevel.So I'll try that for awhile and see where it takes me.

I like your posts. I always learn something from them.---Jack

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#16

Question: what angle ..

Derek Cohen, in Perth Australia

>are you cutting the dovetails?

It strikes me that you are unable to get the bevel side of your chisel in to cut IF the angle (or angle ratio) is so much lower than expected/usual (?)

I know that I find skewed chisels very necessary/helpful when cleaning out the insides of half-blind dovetails, but I don't have a problem with the side angles with any of my bevel chisels (Japanese, vintage USA, UK).

Regards from Perth

Derek

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#17

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paul womack

>I changed handles several times until finally arriving at the tapering octagonal pattern I use today.

Heh. A quick glance at some old chisels could have saved you the 2 years. The tapering octagon is common, and (as I'm sure you've noticed) easy to make with edge tools. I have some (quite recent) carving chisels, and the handles were very obviously made by the craftsman with a drawknife. I suspect he bought the chisels without handles, which was common in previous times.

The sharper that [side]bevel, the weaker the corner, so really sharp bevels wouldn�t make great firmers.

The answer here (of course) is MORE TOOLS!

BugBear (happy owner of bevel edged. firmer, strong firmer, sash mortice, paring, mortise and lock mortise chisels)

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#18

Re: Question: what angle ..

Jack from Maine

>I mark my dovetails with a LV dovetail marker so I use 8:1 or 6:1 depending on hard or soft wood.I'm not experienced/confident enough to freehand my marks as yet.---Jack

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#19

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Jack from Maine

>I'm completely with you on that one.I love tools,the more the merrier. Particularly I like chisels. I wouldn't find it extreme to have too many of them. They take up very little space. I would own a set of every kind of Japanese chisel if it didn't cost so much to own just one.I think this quest may get me to buy my first one though.

Anyone own Iyoroi dovetail chisels? They are lower end Japanese chisels but are there any reasons why they shouldn't work for me?---Jack

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#20

Re: chisel side bevels *LINK*

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>I have these in the link below. Nice chisels for the most part. Needed to raise the bevel a little because of chipping the blade. If I were giong to do it again (and still on a budget) I'd go for these:

http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/chisel/dovetail.html

A little more denaro but I've compared these to the Matsumuras you can see the difference it quality.

Good luck, Scott


Matsumura Chisels

Re: chisel side bevels

#21

Smart Bugbear

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Bug,

You're right and smart. A little historical research really cuts down on the trial and error. I preach about it, but I'm every bit as guilty as anyone else (LV is a pretty big offender IMHO). I just assumed the old handles were terrible. Now I see the way we use chisels (holding them like tennis raquets) really limits their usefulness. (See FWW#150 Bench Chisel Technique).

Chisels are fantastically useful tools. You're smart to have several. The Seaton chest has a full set of firmers and a full set of parers. Trouble is, they are identical. This might suggest the diference lies not in design, but the sharpening. Think of the possibilites! Now, having one of every possible chisel pattern is not enough. You could have 20 bevels, 25, 30, rounded bevels!

Oh I'm going all to vapors!

Adam

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#22

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Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Hello Adam,

After reading discussions about Japanese-style, triangular cross-section dovetail chisels, I got to wondering what happened to the Western dovetail chisels. From your posting, I gather that they never existed, per se.

You wrote, "I chop out the waste and that�s that. Time to beat is one hour per drawer. (I can�t do it with half blind fronts). But there�s no time for paring. As for multiple sizes, I use the chisel to layout the dovetail spacing. One chisel chops the waste. You do have to leave a little extra like you said, to avoid marring the tail�s side. The narrow back of the dove�s tail is another chisel, needed for the pin side."

What chisel and technique do you use to remove the triangular waste left after using the square-sided (firmer?) chisel?

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#23

Re: chisel side bevels

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>OK, what is the difference between the firmer, strong firmer, and sash mortice chisels?

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