What is this and how.... *LINK*

Re: What is this and how....

Todd Hughes

>This a combination tool for the sharpening of large timber cross cut saws.Combines a jointer,Raker tooth gauge,and a set gauge.For some reason most of these that I see,[they are pretty common] seem to be made by Simmonds, then Atkins, don't know if I have seen a Disston one outside of a catalog where it looks like they have a neat keystone cut outs.....Todd

Re: What is this and how....

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I got a file the right size to fit into mine, and just use it as a file handle to joint a saw. Never realized what the other thingamajigs were for.

Re: What is this and how....

Roger Bell

>As our esteemed Mr. Hughes points out, these are combination tools used by filers of larger timber saws. I thought I might add a little more detail to his response. A file is held by set screws in part of the tool and is run over the tips of the saw's teeth to joint the saw, and works just like jointers for carpenter saws. Used in this capacity, the tool functions as a short jointer. Naturally, the saw is held in a big vise. Unlike carpenter saws, many timber saws (particularly those for west coast softwoods) have both cutter teeth and raker teeth. The function of the rakers is to remove the shavings produced by the cutters. Their action is chisel-like. There is a hardened adjustable slotted plate on the tool which is placed atop the rakers so that they may be filed to the desired height or depth, which is always less than the height of the cutting teeth. The raker tooth, before filing, extends through the slot in the plate and is filed to the elevation of the adjusted plate. Specifications for raker height vary with the characteristics of the timber to be cut. Works pretty much the same way as raker filing gauges for modern chain saws. On the other side of the tool is a crude "micrometer"-like pin/screw adjuster. This is also adjusted to desired raker height, and is used when rakers are swaged or hammer shaped to a slight hook rather than merely filed to the desired height/depth. Generally, most filers file the rakers first and then hammer swage them to final depth and shape. Filing rakers without swaging is an easier method but results in a poorer performing saw. Swaged rakers are more difficult to get right but result in much better saw performance.

Determining set of the cutter teeth is done with a different gauge, known as a spider. Similar to a four legged stool with one leg filed shorter to the amount "set" desired in the cutter teeth, three legs are placed on the body of the saw and the fourth on the tooth itself. The tooth is hammered against a hand held anvil until the set is achieved (the manly way) or is bent with a saw saw set similar to the method done on carpenter saws (the girly way). There are other tools and methods as well. Using a poorly tuned and dull timber saw is just like using a dull, poorly set carpenters saw, but by a factor of 100. Using one that is well tuned and sharp is really quite fun for a couple of hours or so.

Tools like these are abundant and are seldom of much value, except when found new in box. There are many designs and variations and a few people collect them. There is also a very small user community of users. Since this a "combination" tool, it is not, unsurprisingly, as effective as dedicated, single purpose tools. For example, a "long" jointer is much more effective than the "short" jointer incorporated into these tools, as is a dedicated raker filing gauge. Simonds, Atkins and Disston were the big three in the timber saw industry, which declined in the late 1950's. Tools of this type were also made by many other firms, including Morin and Anderson (with the Anderson #4 raker gauge being by far the best). The most desirable combination gauge from the filer's point of view is probably the Simonds #342.

By the way Steve, how is your hand grinding coming along?

Thanks and getting better.

Steve Kubien

>Thanks for the info Todd and Roger. Sounds like I may be able to use to joint my saws. I'll see how it works out when I need too.

As for the hand grinding...I've gotten good results on chisels but I still need some practice to be good with wider stuff like irons. I've got the Lee Valley tool-rest-jig-thing and it helps a lot. I think I need to mount it on the other side of my bench, crank with my right hand and guide the tool with my left. I'm a lefty and it seemed pretty natural to crank with my left but that may be part of the problem. Could be just experience (or lack thereof).

What I really like is how FAST I can get results! I took a new Blue Chip, flattened the back, ground a bevel and honed it in about 10 minutes. That was nice.

Play safe,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

P.S. Hey Roger, did you get the money I sent? I never heard from you about it so I assume everything is in order. Let me know if we have unfinished business.

Re: Thanks and getting better.

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>After seeing Darrell use one on hand scrapers to joint them I am still looking around for the two I bought.

Re: What is this and how....

Sandor

>So then do I have a rare and valuable example in my collection?

Any idea on the value of the Disston model? Ok so I'm missing one screw. Or is it just loose?

I picked this up a few years back with the intention of using it for jointing my saws, but have yet to use it. I find I can hold a file just fine.

I paid $2 for it. Is that a gloat?

Sandor (dreaming of all the handtools he can buy with the $ realized from the Sotherby's sale of this rare saw guide)

Re: What is this and how....

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi

>Roger,

Sounds like you have a fair amount of knowledge about sharpening these saws. I have a couple of them that I'd like to tune up and get in good working order then put back to use. Is there any chance you'd take the time to sit down and write a step by step tutorial of sharpening crosscut timber saws. Or do you have any recommemdations for references about the subject? I've never seen any guidelines for set, length of rakers, etc.

Jim Crammond

Re: What is this and how....

Cecil Nickerson

>eR?� 1/4iller's Crosscut Saw Manual is the definative text and is still used by the U.S. Forestry Service. A quick Google of his name turned up a website for a traditional methods of work school where he still teaches workshops. I have this book and although I've put very little of it into practice, there's more than you'll ever need to know between the covers. Good luck�

Cecil

Re: What is this and how.... *LINK*

Roger Bell

>Go here for a tutorial. This will give you a good basic understanding of what is involved. Competency is gained only thru practise.

You can download and print it. You can also send off to MTDC for the hardcopy publication. Ping me if you have questions down the road.


http://http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm77712508/index.htm

Re: What is this and how....

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Your link didn't work. When I tried to fix it, the FS wanted user name and password to access the document. A document name or number would help me locate it.

Re: What is this and how....

Cecil Nickerson

>After looking at what came out in the posted message, you aren't goin' to be able to Google that. His name is Wayne Miller.

Cecil

Re: What is this and how.... *LINK*

Cecil Nickerson

>Go here, the book is posted in PDF on the South Carolina Trails network and can be printed for future reference.

Cecil


http://www.sctrails.net/Trails/LIBRARY/FSPubs/fspubs.html

Re: Thanks and getting better.

Steve Kubien

>Hey Jim,

You can have one of mine if you want. I've got 2 of them.

Let me know,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

Re: What is this and how....

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Thanks for a great source of info. I can also make use of the handbook on axes.

Note that the crosscut saw manual's author is Warren Miller, not the Head Badger.

While looking, I found this other Forest Service training manual, in PDF, on crosscut saws and chainsaws: 0167-2815-MTDC

Re: What is this and how....

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Well Todd...Here is where I one up you.(Damn seldom) I know a fellow in Northern Virginia that has a complete Disston kit like you describe. It dosen't have a file with it and don't know if they were equipped with one. He was very puzzeled with it and didn't know what it was or how it worked. I researched it for him on the net on the recently dead saw set page and printed out some manual pages. He was very happy to finally figure out what he had.JR