Wooden jointers

Re: Wooden jointers

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Don't know if this will help at all, but I use the ECE Primus jointer and love it.

Pam

Re: Wooden jointers

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>This will come as no surprise, Pam and I have different experiences again. I have had the ECE Primus Jointer for quite a few years now. I got in while impatiently waiting for the LN#7 to be produced.

While somewhat attractive in a massive wood plane sort of way, this is one of the least satisfying planes I own. The mouth on mine came way too open (like huge), the handle is large, set to high on the body for ideal application of force, and is flat sided such that any extended use would cause blisters. Now both these aspects of the plane are rectifiable (put in a mouth block, shape the handle exactly to my hands--the latter also having its advantages) but I really didn't feel the ECE Primus should start out as a kit plane.

I find body shape to be blocky and to obscure ones view and to make it more difficult for those with smaller hands to grip on the forward end. The extension adjustment is OK, but not as precise as on their Improved Smoothing Plane (and as already mentioned, you don't have the mouth adjustability of the Improved Smoother). Lateral adjustment is extremely primative and you will do better just to hammer adjust it, so I don't know why they even bothered with the mechanism.

I do like the Lignum Vitae sole, but that is not available on all models.

Prior to remanufacturing, this plane was one of the worst for generating tearout in maple of any plane I've owned.

So, all in all, I much prefer an iron bodied plane as a long Jointer, with the LN#8 being my favorite, then the LN#7 and the Lee Valley #6 comining in second. However, I personally prefer almost any tunable iron jointer to a wooden one, as I can adjust the mouth, have a good two handed grip, and easily adjust extension and lateral adjustment.

But, if you heart is set on a wooden plane, then I'd either go with the Mujingfang that has a less blocky front that is suited to a better front grip and has a crossbar which allows additional choices for propelling, or a Knight Razee which has a decent handle allows for application of force lower on the plane than the ECE.

Re: Wooden jointers

Andrew in Plano

>Thanks to both of you for the replies. I don't know that I am neccesarily set on a wooden jointer, but my finances tend to push me that way. I can get either of these planes for about $130, and even that is a big chunk of change for me (I need lots of other tools too!). Any of the decent metal jointers are pretty far out of my price range. I'm kinda twitchy about buying planes from Ebay.

Peace,

Andrew

Re: Wooden jointers

Dale Lenz - Tahlequah, OK

>>However, I personally prefer almost any tunable iron jointer to a wooden one, as I can adjust the mouth< I went to the L/N site and could not see were the mouth was adjustable?? Or, did you mean you could widen the mouth with a file??

While I got you, I've been curious: were you ever in the Navy aboard the USS American,CVA-66, your name rings a bell. We call the fella I'm thinking about Bear

Re: Wooden jointers

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I was referring to adjusting the size of the mouth by moving the frog forward or back.

Nope, not me. There are actually quite a few Mangiameli's out there, but I've strayed far from the herd. Some would say the nickname bear would fit though :-)

Re: Wooden jointers

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>My personal choice, if shooting for that dollar amount would be the Mujingfang, these planes really do offer a lot for the money. I'd also suggest you consider the HNT Gordon trying plane, which I believe you can get for about $175 and it has been reported on very positively by those who own one. Also take a look at what Steve Knight can do for you in that price range.

I understand the ebay concern, though I think there are a number of people on this group who can point you in the direction of reputable people on ebay and elsewhere who are tool resellers (for one example, I'd buy anything Roger Nixon was standing behind).

I'd also suggest you consider the possibility of the Lee Valley 5.25 W and their #6. They are more than your $130 dollars, but perform very well and offer a lot of versatility. I have a review of the Lee Valley # 6 where I compare it to the Lie-Nielsen #6 and #7 over on the Traditional Tools site. You may find the versatility of a #6 to allow you to meet more of your needs with fewer planes. I also mention the 5.25 W as an example of a plane that is moderate in cost, and serves the jointing needs quite effectively for those who primarily engage in smaller scale projects. For jointing boards for chest, boxes, drawers and the like, I find myself often choosing the #5.25W.

Anyway, just some additional thoughts for you to consider.

Re: Wooden jointers

Tom Williams

>Andrew,

I'd look for a jointer that is comfortable and capable of a very fine cut. I haven't used the ECE beyond giving it a couple of pushes through poplar in the store. I found it bulky and ergonomically unwieldy. I do like wooden planes as well as metal ones and think it is certainly no compromise to go that route. You do need a tight mouth for precision jointing. I personally don't require the adjustable mouth sometimes possible with metal planes, prefering to keep my jointer set fine, and can attest that Steve Knight delivers his wood planes that way. He also incorporates a mouth block feature that lets you easily close up a mouth that has opened with heavy use. Even though his razee model is over your budget, I'd strongly recommend you focus only on this model. He keeps several of his planes on ebay all the time and they usually go for less than his full retail price, so I'd definitely take a look there. You might also shoot him an email and see if he happens to have any cosmetic seconds.

Your Mujingfang option may also be good, but only because it is available from Lee Valley and I have great faith in their willingness to make sure you are satisfied. You can get their jointer and examine it's mouth and ergonomics, then return it if it isn't what you require. It wouldn't surprise me if you couldn't get a LV tech to go measure the mouth of a few with feeler gauges and tell you the average before you even place your order.

Otherwise, ebay or a local flea market is your best bet, but if this is your first metal plane I'd solicit help from a more experienced buddy if possible. Afterwards there are plenty around here that can guide you through restoring and tuning up your purchase.

Tom

Concur on LV 5.25W

Tom Williams

>I don't have a large plane collection and so if one doesn't get much use then I made a mistake. If anything this plane gets more use than I expected, quite frequently as a short jointer.

Tom

Re: Wooden jointers *LINK*

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>Tom,

Am I remembering correctly that you have a Knight jointer without the rear handle as found on the razee version? I seem to remember you talking about doing some custom modifications to one to suit your own preferences in terms of hand holds. If so, how do you like the handleless version? Can you get enough horizontal force without discomfort to the wrist?

It seems as though a nice contoured pad behind the blade, (as used on ECE smoothers, or as shown on Yeung Chan's planes) would be helpful and more versatile than the classic handle.


Yeung Chan's Planes

Re: Wooden jointers

Michael Campbell

>Have you taken a look at Steve Knight's razee jointers?

Re: Wooden jointers

Tom Williams

>Good memory, Jeff.

With some assistance from Steve, I ended up getting a tote and hardware like he currently uses on the razees. I left the original non-razee shape but did relieve the sides for finger holds as he does now. Mine was sort of an unusual situation, as I specifically had him make it very long (28") and out of solid ipe, so it is about as heavy as a metal #7 (22" I think). Lifting this plane for the return stroke required my fingers to go into a death grip and that was too much for them. With the tote and finger holds, however, the ergonomics are dramatically improved and this is my final go-to plane on long boards.

I like those contoured wedges on the back ends of some ECE planes, but they are much more appropriate for smoothers. A plane of this heft really needs a full tote.

Tom

Re: Wooden jointers *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You can get the HNT trying plane (which I also love, but figured Andrew wanted a longer plane, a full jointer) for $153 plus shipping if you buy it from Mik International (choose Australian made, then HNT Gordon planes). They have a very reasonable shipper, doesn't cost as much as you would think, arrives in about 2 weeks.

Pam


Mik International

Re: Wooden jointers

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>Andrew, since you will probably, er, "accumulate" several more long planes before too long, what do you plan on using this one for? I have and love Terry Gordon's planes, but the try plane is a little shorter than a true jointer, and for me is a little harder to use freehand for jointing, although it is very nice for shooting and fantastic for panel leveling. With a fine, non-adjustable mouth (thin shavings) and the high angle bed (a decent amount of pushing effort), you are restricted to lighter passes. Fine for cleaning up already square/reasonably straight edges, but a lot of work for serious material removal. The ergonomics of the Mujingfang look similar, but I have never touched one in the flesh.

I am still a little leery of *bay (my score is now 1-1-1, with the one in the lose column being a real turd), but there are some good deals well within your price range for classic/pre-owned/just-plain-old Stanleys that will work as bought and fettle/clean up to beautiful shape. Any number of people on this forum would be happy to help you pick out likely suspects. Old tool dealers are another good option; you pay a little more for a more predictable result. If you are interested, let people know and give them an e-mail target for references, or just ask here; I will throw out Sandy Moss (again), and there are many more. Steve Knight makes great tools, and that 28" depleted-uranium-I-mean-ipe jointer has the wheels turning, even though I need another jointer right now like I need a third thumb (no immediate need, but it sure would be nice to have around).

Good luck!




/jvs

Re: Wooden jointers

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Just to reinforce the HNT Gordon Try Plane suggestion of Lyn and Pam. It is a wonderful plane, much lighter and less fatiguing to use than my Stanley #7. The alternative is one of Steve's planes - which I would be purchasing if I lived on your side of the Pond.

I have a Mujingfang 11" smoother and love it, frequently prefering it as a jointer for short boards. I guess my bias is clearly for wooden planes.

The other factor to consider is the type of timber you are more likely to joint. The 60* blade angle on the Gordon is designed for Australian hardwoods, which are seriously hard and have "interesting" grain. I find the Stanley #7, with a 45* (Japanese laminated) blade, can also do a good job since momentum carries it through, but it is not as clean a cut as the Gordon (on the harder timber). Jointing a straighter grain or softwood is not going to test either plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Come to think of it...

Dale Lenz - Tahlequah, OK

>I think some called him Lou?? Thanks for the reply and the clarification. ...Dale

Re: Wooden jointers

Jeff Schmidt (KY)

>Yes, Michael. I have looked at the razee. I prefer a bit lower profile in the front for the reasons articulated by Lyn. In general, I like the feel of the contoured pad or hump behind the blade for smoothing but was unsure about how effective it would be for producing the horizontal force necessary in edge jointing. I have a feeling that fellows like Krenov and Chan may be using the more "organic" shaped long planes for panel flattening and to follow up on previously machine jointed surfaces, rather than using them in the more arduous task of establishing a long jointed edge.

Hijack :-) #7 Performance on gnarly wood...

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>A couple of you may remember my discussion of the fun (as in not) I was having with Australian Red Gum and smoothing planes. Red Gum is among the hardest that exist.

Well, yesterday I had to take a piece of this and put a straight edge as a reference for the rip fence on the saw. I couldn't be bothered pulling out the jointer (everything is on wheels in my shop, it's a long story) so I just hauled out my old franken-plane #7 thinking that the worst that could happen is I haul out the 'lectric jointer.

Well, it was a lot better than I thought! In fact better than I have had with every other plane in my collection. I can't explain it, same dynamics and fundamental design as every other Stanley plane. I don't know how the extra mass could explain the results.

One note of interest though, I had the blade set a little coarse at first and I could see clear repeating patterns along the edge. Similar to what a power jointer would do but obviously for different reasons. I guess the blade was vibrating at a consistent frequency. I backed off the set on the blade and got a beautiful finish!!!!!

Anybody want a set of smoother planes? :-)

Re: Wooden jointers

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>I think Mangiameli means honey eater so bear would be appropriate. Have I assumed wrongly?

Re: Wooden jointers

Dirk Wright

>I have the English Pattern jack from ECE, which uses the Primus mechanism. I have not had a problem with tearout, but the sole was not flat! It's certainly easier to flatten a wood sole vs. a metal one, but this is something I didn't expect from ECE. Since I have yet to be presented with the challenge of jointing a long board, this plane is good enough for me right now.

I also have a Knight smoother that I am not pleased with. He used some knotty wood in part of it, and that part of the plane has since cracked. I am also mostly hopeless in adjusting a wedged iron. I find making fine adjustments very time consuming and frustrating. I much prefer the Primus method. The sole of the Knight smoother wasn't flat either.

Comparing my antique #6 Stanley to my ECE long jack, I'll take a wood plane any day. The fatigue from using a heavy iron plane for a long period is just not worth it in my opinion.

Hope this helps.

Re: Wooden jointers

Tom Williams

>Gosh, Dirk, you don't like any of your planes! :-)

Kidding aside, the need to flatten the sole seems to be a virtual certainty with wooden planes, while with the new metal plane makers you have a fair chance of avoiding much of this. Wood will need to equilibrate to the conditions in your part of the world. Even my well-dried ipe jointer needed to be flattened a few months after getting it, but it has been right on every time I've checked since. Clark and Williams make very expensive wood planes from beech (I believe) and they suggest that you touch up the sole with each change of season! That's too much for me, and again I haven't found it necessary, but at the least you're likely to need to do it once regardless of the craftsmanship of the maker.

A crack is not to be expected and you have every right to be troubled by this. Where is it? I'd guess that this is from using stock that was not fully or properly dried. Steve uses exotics that can take forever to dry and he occasionally has supply problems. Regardless, his planes are gauranteed forever so shoot him an email and I have no doubt he'll exchange it or make you happy some way or another.

I must confess to being intimidated by the task of setting a plane iron without an adjuster, but I found that it only took a little practice to get the hang of it. I enjoyed the challenge, much like learning to use hand tools in general. The journey is part of the satisfaction for me. Typically I just put the plane on a flat surface, insert the iron til it is resting on the surface, then push the wedge in. The wedge ends up pushing the iron out just a tad and that's usually about what I wanted. I try to err on the side of too shallow a cut, as I find it easier to tap the iron out a bit than to retract it with wacks to the rear of the plane. My wooden scrub requires absolutely no skill to adjust, but jointing and smoothing are much more precise operations. There's no doubt that it takes some practice to be able to adjust them as accurately and as quickly as with a threaded adjuster, but I'm typically not in so much hurry and personally enjoy the experience of wood on wood planing enough to make the effort worthwhile. That being said, most of my planes are metal and I enjoy them too!

Tom

Re: Wooden jointers

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Dirk, I like the Primus adjustment method, too, it is much easier and more precise than wedging, at least until one become more expert at wedging. I also use Tom Williams method for the initial setting, then adjust as needed, so wedging isn't all that big a deal at this point.

As to flat, I took mine out of the box, jointed a board, all worked perfectly; so I admittedly haven't checked for flat. I think I have more of an artistic temperment than engineering, so it just doesn't matter whether it's flat. Not until I start having problems does the tiny engineer in me kick in.

Pam

Re: Wooden jointers

Dirk Wright

>Yeah, I think you're right Tom, I don't really like any of them (all 7 bench planes, 2 block planes, a couple of rabbets, and several old woodies). The one I enjoy the most is my ECE Primus jack and english jack, neither of which showed up with flat soles. The precision of the Primus adjustment lets me focus on planing and not so much on adusting. Many times I've found that just a quarter or eighth of a turn on the Primus adjuster is the difference between a great cut and no cut, hence my appreciation of this feature.

As someone else mentioned, I agree that the Primus lateral adjustment is mostly useless. I just grab the blade assembly and move it rather than fiddle with the lever. I really do wish that I could master the wedged blade adjustment stuff because I could save some money on plane purchases! Plus, I could even consider making some myself! But, alas, my klutz factor is way too high to accomodate this particular black art.

The Knight smoother I have is made from five or six pieces of wood glued together, and the one that cracked was at the rear, the piece that the blade rests upon. I'm not going to bother him with a takeback, so it just sits on the shelf. Anyone want it for 20 bucks? It's hardly used at all, just tested occasionally. Another strange feature of this plane is that the sole is not parallel to the top of the plane, as the plane is viewed from the front or rear. I don't know what was his intention in making it like that.

Re: Wooden jointers

Steve Knight

>well your getting a replacement even if you don't want one (G)

I have a video showing plane adjusting on my site. it sounds like your working too hard. but also the plane is making it harder then it should be.

I will get you fixed up and if you want you can still sell the plane (G)

Re: Wooden jointers

Dirk Wright

>Thank you Steve. That is very generous of you. I didn't mean to disparage your good name, just my frustration with this particular plane.