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Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

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Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#1

Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>Ok, stupid questions forthcoming:

I'm putting together a Lee Valley order. Gonna be like Christmas in February. Anyway, I need some cut nails. Having never used cut nails (or nails in general, for that matter) on a furniture project, I'm a little confused. My material's a smidge over 3/4" thick; should I be getting 1-1/2" wrought head nails or 2" rose head nails? For the most part, the heads are going to be set and covered - what should I be looking for?

Told you they were stupid questions.

Thanks for any help.

Scott

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#2

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

Steve Wargo

>FWIW. The Tremont Cut nails are outstanding. I did order some from Lee Valley and they are O.K. but the Tremont Nails are great. As for length, I'd use 1 1/4" if you're goint to set them.

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#3

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Scott

I suspect Tremont nail www.tremontnail.com is the only source for these nails. Pretty sure LV buys Tremont nails in bulk quantities and repackages them in smaller quantities. Last I looked, LV prices were similar or the same as Tremont�s. LV seems to offer smaller quantities (for proportionally less money) than Tremont does.

Scott, you must determine what you need from your nails. For face nailing the front of your six board chest on, you�ll want a headed nail because they will take some tension. You want cut nails for the same reason. They hold better in tension. Tremont offers several styles. You want hardened nails, not clinchers- especially if your nailing skills aren�t great (mine sure aren�t). Clinchers will bend on you. That�s what they�re made to do.

For a flush application, Tremont recommends their common standard nails, or common rose-heads. I don�t use either. I don�t like the heads of these nails and I like the neck under the head of the decorative wrought heads and rose head clinchers. As the theory goes, this necked portion minimizes splits and locks the nail in place better.

To flush your heads, I recommend applying a pilot hole ( I use a gimlet or a brad awl) and a countersink before nailing. Don�t try to bash the head into the wood. The countersink should be roughly the same size of the head. Make the counter sink, then stick the head into it to see how it fits. I try not to make the countersinks too big. Keep in mind a flushed 1-1/2� long nail may penetrate two 4/4 boards. The countersink depth is important.

The trick to nailing cut nails is aligning the parallel sides with the grain: Think of cut nails as having been cut from a piece of sheet metal. Two sides are parallel. The other sides have either a diamond or wedge shape to them (I prefer the diamond). If you drive the wedged shape across the grain, you�ll split the board.

In your case, you�ll be driving your nails across grain. Choose the face boards grain to select the nail�s orientation. Also, you�ll have to be careful since you�ll be nailing close to an edge. When possible, its best to leave the board long, then trim it flush after nailing. I�m convinced this is the right thing to do when making a clamped top for a chest for example. But you probably can�t do that since you�ll likely let your face board into a rabbet. If that rabbet is a �� deep, you�ll only have �� or less between the center of the nail and the edge of the board. In this case, I recommend pre-drilling nearly full size holes in the face board. If the holes are a little large that will only help by providing breathing room for the board to move.

That�s all I know. I hope it helps.

Adam

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#4

Tremont and LV cut nails

Steve Wargo

>If the nails that LV sells are Tremont then I would assume them to be seconds. I only know that the packages I purchsed were not milled as nicely. BTW your explanation of the use was very good. Most people think you just hammer them in like a finish nail, wait... most people I know don't even know what they are. Predrilling is almost always a must, at least at my menial skill level.

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#5

Wow - cut nail primer!

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>Thanks again, Adam - I'm printing this one out. Exactly the information I was looking for.

I'm a bit off the four day pace, but things are moving. Hope to have pictures by the 28th...

Scott

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#6

pre drilling

Todd Hughes

>I don't know but I think that alot of cut nails were used originaly with out pre drilling holes because of the relivtive difficulty of drilling small holes and the rariety of drills to do it for most wood workers.Also don't think any original cut nails were hardened, at least I have never seen any and I collect old nails for special projects and have alot of them....If people back then could do it why can't we today?....Todd

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#7

Re: pre drilling

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>There could be a couple of reasons, say working wet wood, very different consistancy of the wood itself, and lack of skill/practice/use. After all, it's not as if nailed butt joints are exactly recommended for fine furniture.

Pam

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#8

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

MikeL in SoCal

>Hi Adam and all,

This is an interesting thread. Can anybody provide a rough estimation of when cut nails became secondary to 'modern' nails in terms of production/use?

Cheers,

Mike

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#9

Depends who you ask...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>After all, it's not as if nailed butt joints are exactly recommended for fine furniture.

I wouldn't presume to call anything I make "fine" (or furniture, for that matter), but a lot of what I've read calls for nailed joinery in the correct application for fine furniture. This may not be your typical first grader's nailed butt joint birdhouse-type stuff, but backboards, drawer runners, and some structural joinery has traditionally been done (and is still done) with nails. At least, that's what I read from Glen Huey, Lonnie Bird, and Randall O'Donnell. And then there's the whole six-board chest I'm working on, always been done (according to several of the fine folk here) with nails...

Now where's that ibuprofen?

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#10

Re: Depends who you ask...

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Right, Scott. Not to forget face frames on cabinets. These may not be seen in the highest end pieces, but were perfectly acceptable for much good quality furniture. I predrill, countersink, and putty them, paying particular attention to the coloring of the filler.

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#11

Re: Depends who you ask...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>OK, point made. William, I agree on face frames, but think I prefer glue and clamps when possible. Maybe it's just something about Norm's brads that I find irritating, even though they make a lot of sense.

Pam

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#12

Re: Depends who you ask...

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I strongly prefer glue and clamps, and have even considered using John Blazy's recommended PL Pro Poly (which definitely falls in the power tool realm), whenever I can use them, because I don't like to see the nail holes. Just wanted to point out that tradition allows the nails.

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#13

PL pro poly ?

Clay Craig in Miami

>Sir William,

PL Pro Poly? Can you steer me somewhere I can read more? I found an OSI 'PL POLY wood glue' and a LePage 'PL Premium' construction adhesive ...

Thanks,

Clay

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#14

Re: PL pro poly ?

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I haven't used it yet. Do a search over on the Messages forum. It is a polyurethane wood glue that John Blazy has been recommending. It's a lot cheaper than gorilla glue, and comes in a tube for a caulking gun.

Re: Cut Nail Recommendation Needed...

#15

Todd (re: pre-drilling)

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Todd,

I've seen no specific evidence of pre-drilling in period furniture. I HAVE seen plenty of early tool inventories including both gimlets and bradawls.

Now I usually think of early gimlets as some sort of shell with a lead screw. These were probably too big for furniture sized nails, though they could have had other use in a cabinet shop.

Bradawls I have certainly ARE sized appropriately for nails. It wouldn't be correct to say period workmen didn't have the means to pre drill. I find my bradawls tremendously handy.

That said, I would guess carpenters would not pre-drill ever.

Todd, you're the expert on hardening. I wouldn't know the first thing about it. I have heard (maybe a reenactor myth) that folks burned down houses to salvage the nails. I'd think this would soften them and render them useless. If what you say is true, that would lend some credence to this story.

As to driving soft nails, my nailing skills suck so I recommend pre-drilling to folks like me. Especially when the nails are expensive.

Regards,

Adam

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